Ok, I Need Bench Help

[quote]Gianacakos wrote:
I hate to be a skeptic, but this doesn’t set off anyone else’s “spidey sense”? How old are you? Do you have heiniously long arms (like 10 inches more than your height, lol) and tiny femurs? I just don’t understand how someone who gains so much muscle in such a short time is so weak in a basic lift and 215 is very literally VERY weak. I would need to see videos to believe this fish story. Again, I am sorry for being a skeptic.[/quote]

I don’t find it that hard to believe.

I have seen two guys at my gym who can deadlift four plates but can barely bench 135 lb.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Gianacakos wrote:
I hate to be a skeptic, but this doesn’t set off anyone else’s “spidey sense”? How old are you? Do you have heiniously long arms (like 10 inches more than your height, lol) and tiny femurs? I just don’t understand how someone who gains so much muscle in such a short time is so weak in a basic lift and 215 is very literally VERY weak. I would need to see videos to believe this fish story. Again, I am sorry for being a skeptic.

I don’t find it that hard to believe.

I have seen two guys at my gym who can deadlift four plates but can barely bench 135 lb.

[/quote]

Really? Just out of curiousity do they completely neglect their bench? This kid or man or whatever has shown a program that certainly does not neglect benching. I have never seen a 550 pound deadlifter who can only do 215 or anything near that much disparity.

OP, maybe part of the problem is that your bench day was the day after shoulders. Personally I would not be able to give 100 percent on bench the day after doing two different overhead press movements.

While I think risk of overtraining is often overstated, I agree with thunderbolt that there is no need to be lifting seven days per week.

I think that the sample splits in the latest Poliquin article would be a better way to split up your training than either of the splits you posted.

If you’re planning on deadlifting on back day, I would pick split #2

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=2098269

Split #1:

Day 1: Chest and Back

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Shoulders and Arms

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

Split #2:

Day 1: Chest and Biceps

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Back and Triceps

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

[quote]Gianacakos wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Gianacakos wrote:
I hate to be a skeptic, but this doesn’t set off anyone else’s “spidey sense”? How old are you? Do you have heiniously long arms (like 10 inches more than your height, lol) and tiny femurs? I just don’t understand how someone who gains so much muscle in such a short time is so weak in a basic lift and 215 is very literally VERY weak. I would need to see videos to believe this fish story. Again, I am sorry for being a skeptic.

I don’t find it that hard to believe.

I have seen two guys at my gym who can deadlift four plates but can barely bench 135 lb.

Really? Just out of curiousity do they completely neglect their bench? This kid or man or whatever has shown a program that certainly does not neglect benching. I have never seen a 550 pound deadlifter who can only do 215 or anything near that much disparity.[/quote]

I am not sure exactly how either of them train as I have never talked to them. Both seem to give a similar level of priority to both upper and lower body.

Both guys are young and pretty skinny though. They also both have relatively long arms.

If you really need me age, I’m 19. This is my first-ever bulk. I’ve been bulking since August 20th to be specific. I have a 79" wingspan at 6’2". No, I’m not on steroids. Supplements went no further than creatine, fish oil, protein powder, and a strong multi-vitamin.

For the record, on May 10th, I plan on starting a cut until the next semester of college starts. I want to drop into single-digit bodyfat because my goals are bodybuilding oriented. Lowest I’ve ever been bodyfat-wise is 12%, and I wish to break that self-record. I, however, do know that in order to be big, I will have to lift big, and, as of now, I am not meeting such a standard for my pressing movements. If I start cutting, any possible strength gains will be harder to achieve.

Will it be optimal to lift a very hard schedule that is in search of strength gains while cutting?

Sounds like I need to have 3 or so pressing days a week with heavy tricep work included and do lots of low-rep sets. With my current 5-day split, I press less than 1.5 times a week on average. I think more than doubling my frequency on pressing should get something moving. For the dips, I’m just gonna suck it up and do them.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
OP, maybe part of the problem is that your bench day was the day after shoulders. Personally I would not be able to give 100 percent on bench the day after doing two different overhead press movements.

While I think risk of overtraining is often overstated, I agree with thunderbolt that there is no need to be lifting seven days per week.

I think that the sample splits in the latest Poliquin article would be a better way to split up your training than either of the splits you posted.

If you’re planning on deadlifting on back day, I would pick split #2

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=2098269

Split #1:

Day 1: Chest and Back

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Shoulders and Arms

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

Split #2:

Day 1: Chest and Biceps

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Back and Triceps

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

[/quote]
Chest every 6 days? That’s less frequent than I am doing it now. Same with triceps and there doesn’t seem to be a shoulder-specific workout. As for my 7-day split with no rest days, I agree that it could lead to overtraining, but if you look at it, each muscle gets a fair amount of rest. Let me show you what I mean.

Day 1: Legs (that way I can get more sets in)
Day 2: Shoulders and Triceps
Day 3: Back and Biceps
Day 4: Chest and Triceps
Day 5: Traps and Calves
Day 6: Biceps and Triceps
Day 7: Chest and Shoulder pressing movements (no tricep isolation)

  • Legs get a full week of rest. They are used a little bit on back day from deads, but that’s it.
  • Shoulders get hit hard on day 2, then rest for 48 hours and get moderately on day 4, then rest 72 hours and get hit moderately on day 7, then rest 48 hours to repeat the cycle.
    *Back gets a full week of rest. No problems there.
  • Chest gets worked hard on day 4, then rests 72 hours and is hit hard on day 7, then resting 96 hours.
    *Traps and Calves get a full week of rest. Traps get used a slight bit during deads, but nothing to worry about.
    *Triceps get worked pretty hard on day 2, then rest 48 hours, then get hit pretty hard on day 4, then rest 48 hours, then get hit really hard on day 7, then rest 72 hours to get hit again on day 2.
    *Biceps get hit pretty hard on day 3, then rest 72 hours, then get hit really hard on day 6, then rest 96 hours.

As you can see, every single muscle group has at least one period during the week where it rests 72 hours, allowing it to fully recover. Most muscles can recover in 48 hours. No muscle group ever works any more often than 48 hours between workouts, and some muscles have a 4 day rest period or even a week. If overtraining begins to set in, a few days rest will solve the problem. Then back at it. It’s not like my triceps or chest or whatever won’t be recovering during another day just because I’m working out with exercises that don’t even hit those muscles. I’m basically considering my days where I DON’T work a given muscle as a rest day for that specific muscle. I want to not only get my bench up, but increase my other lifts as well at the same time. Hey, if I need to take 2 - 3 days off every several weeks to let my body catch up, that’s fine. I hope some can see my logic.

Forgot to mention that I’ve been through Chad Waterbury’s High Frequency Training program where you go in 2x a day and do full-body workouts. I managed to do that for 5 months straight without skipping a workout. If I managed that, then I think I can most likely manage the workout I listed.

Read, and I mean cover to cover, Supertraining (Mell Siff) and the Science and Practice of Strength Training (Zatsiorsky). You will get more from reading those two books cover to cover than you will ever learn on the internet. I have never had so much confidence in my lifting and program organization than after reading these books. They are an invaluable resource to have on hand. If you need the basics (form and such) Starting Strength (Rippetoe) is good. It is great to listen to everyone around you who has done anything worth while in the gym, but if you don’t have a good grasp of the advanced principles of training you won’t be able to pick the great stuff from the garbage.

[quote]Gianacakos wrote:
Read, and I mean cover to cover, Supertraining (Mell Siff) and the Science and Practice of Strength Training (Zatsiorsky). You will get more from reading those two books cover to cover than you will ever learn on the internet. I have never had so much confidence in my lifting and program organization than after reading these books. They are an invaluable resource to have on hand. If you need the basics (form and such) Starting Strength (Rippetoe) is good. It is great to listen to everyone around you who has done anything worth while in the gym, but if you don’t have a good grasp of the advanced principles of training you won’t be able to pick the great stuff from the garbage.[/quote]

You wouldn’t happen to know where I could download an e-book of those, would you? I’m a poor college student and I wouldn’t be able to afford those until late May once I get my first summer job paycheck.

[quote]drummerofgod89 wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:
OP, maybe part of the problem is that your bench day was the day after shoulders. Personally I would not be able to give 100 percent on bench the day after doing two different overhead press movements.

While I think risk of overtraining is often overstated, I agree with thunderbolt that there is no need to be lifting seven days per week.

I think that the sample splits in the latest Poliquin article would be a better way to split up your training than either of the splits you posted.

If you’re planning on deadlifting on back day, I would pick split #2

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=2098269

Split #1:

Day 1: Chest and Back

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Shoulders and Arms

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

Split #2:

Day 1: Chest and Biceps

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Back and Triceps

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

Chest every 6 days? That’s less frequent than I am doing it now. Same with triceps and there doesn’t seem to be a shoulder-specific workout. As for my 7-day split with no rest days, I agree that it could lead to overtraining, but if you look at it, each muscle gets a fair amount of rest. Let me show you what I mean.

Day 1: Legs (that way I can get more sets in)
Day 2: Shoulders and Triceps
Day 3: Back and Biceps
Day 4: Chest and Triceps
Day 5: Traps and Calves
Day 6: Biceps and Triceps
Day 7: Chest and Shoulder pressing movements (no tricep isolation)

  • Legs get a full week of rest. They are used a little bit on back day from deads, but that’s it.
  • Shoulders get hit hard on day 2, then rest for 48 hours and get moderately on day 4, then rest 72 hours and get hit moderately on day 7, then rest 48 hours to repeat the cycle.
    *Back gets a full week of rest. No problems there.
  • Chest gets worked hard on day 4, then rests 72 hours and is hit hard on day 7, then resting 96 hours.
    *Traps and Calves get a full week of rest. Traps get used a slight bit during deads, but nothing to worry about.
    *Triceps get worked pretty hard on day 2, then rest 48 hours, then get hit pretty hard on day 4, then rest 48 hours, then get hit really hard on day 7, then rest 72 hours to get hit again on day 2.
    *Biceps get hit pretty hard on day 3, then rest 72 hours, then get hit really hard on day 6, then rest 96 hours.

As you can see, every single muscle group has at least one period during the week where it rests 72 hours, allowing it to fully recover. Most muscles can recover in 48 hours. No muscle group ever works any more often than 48 hours between workouts, and some muscles have a 4 day rest period or even a week. If overtraining begins to set in, a few days rest will solve the problem. Then back at it. It’s not like my triceps or chest or whatever won’t be recovering during another day just because I’m working out with exercises that don’t even hit those muscles. I’m basically considering my days where I DON’T work a given muscle as a rest day for that specific muscle. I want to not only get my bench up, but increase my other lifts as well at the same time. Hey, if I need to take 2 - 3 days off every several weeks to let my body catch up, that’s fine. I hope some can see my logic.

Forgot to mention that I’ve been through Chad Waterbury’s High Frequency Training program where you go in 2x a day and do full-body workouts. I managed to do that for 5 months straight without skipping a workout. If I managed that, then I think I can most likely manage the workout I listed.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t really see the logic in the split you have posted. If you are including dips or close grip bench on arm day, that adds up to four days with upper body pressing exercises.

I doubt I would be able to make good strength gains on that routine. With that being said, your squat and dead are both a fair way ahead of mine, so I probably don’t have any business to be telling you how to set up your routine.

Good luck with whatever you do.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
drummerofgod89 wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:
OP, maybe part of the problem is that your bench day was the day after shoulders. Personally I would not be able to give 100 percent on bench the day after doing two different overhead press movements.

While I think risk of overtraining is often overstated, I agree with thunderbolt that there is no need to be lifting seven days per week.

I think that the sample splits in the latest Poliquin article would be a better way to split up your training than either of the splits you posted.

If you’re planning on deadlifting on back day, I would pick split #2

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=2098269

Split #1:

Day 1: Chest and Back

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Shoulders and Arms

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

Split #2:

Day 1: Chest and Biceps

Day 2: Anything from the bellybutton down (lower body)

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Back and Triceps

Day 5: Off

Day 6: Repeat the cycle

Chest every 6 days? That’s less frequent than I am doing it now. Same with triceps and there doesn’t seem to be a shoulder-specific workout. As for my 7-day split with no rest days, I agree that it could lead to overtraining, but if you look at it, each muscle gets a fair amount of rest. Let me show you what I mean.

Day 1: Legs (that way I can get more sets in)
Day 2: Shoulders and Triceps
Day 3: Back and Biceps
Day 4: Chest and Triceps
Day 5: Traps and Calves
Day 6: Biceps and Triceps
Day 7: Chest and Shoulder pressing movements (no tricep isolation)

  • Legs get a full week of rest. They are used a little bit on back day from deads, but that’s it.
  • Shoulders get hit hard on day 2, then rest for 48 hours and get moderately on day 4, then rest 72 hours and get hit moderately on day 7, then rest 48 hours to repeat the cycle.
    *Back gets a full week of rest. No problems there.
  • Chest gets worked hard on day 4, then rests 72 hours and is hit hard on day 7, then resting 96 hours.
    *Traps and Calves get a full week of rest. Traps get used a slight bit during deads, but nothing to worry about.
    *Triceps get worked pretty hard on day 2, then rest 48 hours, then get hit pretty hard on day 4, then rest 48 hours, then get hit really hard on day 7, then rest 72 hours to get hit again on day 2.
    *Biceps get hit pretty hard on day 3, then rest 72 hours, then get hit really hard on day 6, then rest 96 hours.

As you can see, every single muscle group has at least one period during the week where it rests 72 hours, allowing it to fully recover. Most muscles can recover in 48 hours. No muscle group ever works any more often than 48 hours between workouts, and some muscles have a 4 day rest period or even a week. If overtraining begins to set in, a few days rest will solve the problem. Then back at it. It’s not like my triceps or chest or whatever won’t be recovering during another day just because I’m working out with exercises that don’t even hit those muscles. I’m basically considering my days where I DON’T work a given muscle as a rest day for that specific muscle. I want to not only get my bench up, but increase my other lifts as well at the same time. Hey, if I need to take 2 - 3 days off every several weeks to let my body catch up, that’s fine. I hope some can see my logic.

Forgot to mention that I’ve been through Chad Waterbury’s High Frequency Training program where you go in 2x a day and do full-body workouts. I managed to do that for 5 months straight without skipping a workout. If I managed that, then I think I can most likely manage the workout I listed.

Honestly, I don’t really see the logic in the split you have posted. If you are including dips or close grip bench on arm day, that adds up to four days with upper body pressing exercises.

I doubt I would be able to make good strength gains on that routine. With that being said, your squat and dead are both a fair way ahead of mine, so I probably don’t have any business to be telling you how to set up your routine.

Good luck with whatever you do.

[/quote]

Everyone’s different. I remember better strength gains on my chest when I trained it 3+ times a week. I was making great strength gains for a while when I squatted and deadlifted for high sets twice a week each. I dropped down to 3 sets of each every 5 days and found that those two lifts were still making just as good of strength gains. Obviously the same didn’t happen for bench.

I have good recovery ability, and creatine is a wonderful tool. I can include dips and close-grip bench on my chest days and do all isolation work on arms day for the tris, that way I don’t destroy my chest. Overtraining sessions, however, do have their place. Every several months, they can be useful for a quick boost to strength and size.

Don’t get me wrong, the programs are good ones, but I don’t see how even less frequency and volume for my lacking muscles is going to help them out and adding a reasonable amount of frequency and volume wouldn’t help.

pm me and i’ll see what i can do.