I guess I’m still way south of “for pussies”.
and I really don’t disagree with the standing is better argument…[/quote]
I know, what a pussy that guy must be, LOL
maraudermeat - total sissy, more like maraudermanmeatmuncher amirite?
this argument/debate is akin to whether upright rows, behind the neck anything, and leg presses are good or bad for you. people that study anatomy, physiology, and biomechanics know they are bad for you. but people have been doing them injury free for years.
the way i see this debate, its the same as smoking and getting lung cancer. some people get lung cancer without ever smoking. some smoke for 40 years and never get lung cancer. but if you smoke it is a fact that the chance of getting cancer goes up as well as the chance of several other diseases and health issues. yet people go on smoking and no one ever thinks its going to happen to them.
so which is better? i guess you should ask in what context. do you mean which one adds more mass? and mass where? which one does more for the body, more of what. which ones makes you stronger, stronger in the shoulder press or overall. you can even ask yourself do you want results now and screw what happens in the future. which is better depends on the person and their goals.
my previous answer i still stand with. it has been shown to be bad for the back. but as dr mcgill has also written many times. those without back issues may never have issues with exercises he does not recommend. but in my words, you do them and you increase dramatically the chance of injury. doesnt mean you will get injured. just increase the chances.
Sitting down to Press is like sitting down to pee. It’s uncomfortable, weird, and I feel like a girl. Squeeze your glutes and brace your midsection to be stable. I haven’t had any lower back pain or discomfort after I learned what true shoulder mobility is and learning how to OHP correctly.
[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:
this argument/debate is akin to whether upright rows, behind the neck anything, and leg presses are good or bad for you. people that study anatomy, physiology, and biomechanics know they are bad for you. but people have been doing them injury free for years.
the way i see this debate, its the same as smoking and getting lung cancer. some people get lung cancer without ever smoking. some smoke for 40 years and never get lung cancer. but if you smoke it is a fact that the chance of getting cancer goes up as well as the chance of several other diseases and health issues. yet people go on smoking and no one ever thinks its going to happen to them.
so which is better? i guess you should ask in what context. do you mean which one adds more mass? and mass where? which one does more for the body, more of what. which ones makes you stronger, stronger in the shoulder press or overall. you can even ask yourself do you want results now and screw what happens in the future. which is better depends on the person and their goals.
my previous answer i still stand with. it has been shown to be bad for the back. but as dr mcgill has also written many times. those without back issues may never have issues with exercises he does not recommend. but in my words, you do them and you increase dramatically the chance of injury. doesnt mean you will get injured. just increase the chances.[/quote]
Well said
Got a question, kind of pertaining to the standing vs seated debate.
I’ve always done lot of shoulder mobility work, and use to be one of those ‘i can’t bench because of my shoulders’ guys, but after working on form and RC strength, I never have shoulder pain any more, EXCEPT when doing standing OHP. Doesn’t matter if it’s just the bar, or is go down to my chest, or stop at the chin; when doing a STANDING OHP, my left shoulder starts immediately hurting, and makes a ‘crunch’ noise. The noise is loud enough that people in squat racks next to me, comment on the sound, suggesting I stop.
Seated, going to chin level, seated OHP is my favorite lift. But standing, it just kills me. Any ideas why this could be? And anyone have a similar issue??
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Got a question, kind of pertaining to the standing vs seated debate.
I’ve always done lot of shoulder mobility work, and use to be one of those ‘i can’t bench because of my shoulders’ guys, but after working on form and RC strength, I never have shoulder pain any more, EXCEPT when doing standing OHP. Doesn’t matter if it’s just the bar, or is go down to my chest, or stop at the chin; when doing a STANDING OHP, my left shoulder starts immediately hurting, and makes a ‘crunch’ noise. The noise is loud enough that people in squat racks next to me, comment on the sound, suggesting I stop.
Seated, going to chin level, seated OHP is my favorite lift. But standing, it just kills me. Any ideas why this could be? And anyone have a similar issue??[/quote]
Sounds fucking horrible.
I have had repeat issues with RC / shoulder crunching / pain on bench and OHP. I only recently seem to have overcome them, via five things. You may already know/do all these, but here you go anyway:
-heaps of pec / delt stretching, both after workouts and during the day.
-doing a pulling movement (chins, DB rows) between every set of pushing.
-slowing the negative part of the lift. Apparently quick negatives leave you more prone to injury.
-elbow positioning; this was the crucial part for me. Maintaining a 45-50 degree angle makes my shoulders feel truly awesome, and after getting used to it, increased my OHP strength.
-thumbless grip for OHP. Allows a bit of freedom of movement and takes away all the pressure on my bicep tendon, which was a regular injury for me.
…I haven’t a clue why standing would mess your shoulder up more than seated. Perhaps you are leaning during the movement, and the different angle is aggravating your joint?
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Got a question, kind of pertaining to the standing vs seated debate.
I’ve always done lot of shoulder mobility work, and use to be one of those ‘i can’t bench because of my shoulders’ guys, but after working on form and RC strength, I never have shoulder pain any more, EXCEPT when doing standing OHP. Doesn’t matter if it’s just the bar, or is go down to my chest, or stop at the chin; when doing a STANDING OHP, my left shoulder starts immediately hurting, and makes a ‘crunch’ noise. The noise is loud enough that people in squat racks next to me, comment on the sound, suggesting I stop.
Seated, going to chin level, seated OHP is my favorite lift. But standing, it just kills me. Any ideas why this could be? And anyone have a similar issue??[/quote]
Definitely a question for a doctor when the body starts crunching. With that said, let me give it a shot, because I am def. not a doctor:). The only thing that pops into my head is that you may have some scapular stability issues that are masked when you brace them against a bench, whether vertical.
When you were doing shoulder mobility did you also focus on scapular stability/ROM by doing ex. for the low and mid traps, rhomboids, serratus anterior?
From what I have read and seen shoulders are much like the back in that many people will have problems, and some will not, due to minor differences in their skeletal structure.
A simple impingement test is this. If your left shoulder hurts, take the left hand, place it on the right shoulder. Then raise the left elbow by rotating at the shoulder without shrugging. If you cannot get the elbow to the nose pain free, you should get to a doctor.
damn you greystoke for dragging me into this debat. i really don’t see why there has to be a debat. I do every overhead press variation i can think of. it keeps things from getting boring and your training stale. i also find that it keeps my shoulders healthy.
for the record… i do way more standing overhead pressing than seated. hopefully that makes me less of a pussy.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
damn you greystoke for dragging me into this debat. i really don’t see why there has to be a debat. I do every overhead press variation i can think of. it keeps things from getting boring and your training stale. i also find that it keeps my shoulders healthy.
for the record… i do way more standing overhead pressing than seated. hopefully that makes me less of a pussy. [/quote]
Sorry bro. I was just pointing out, that I have not reached the pussy level of strength yet, and I couldn’t think of a better example than you.
Like I said, I concur that standing is better, but for me, seated seems to work better.
Oh, and the next thread that bashes benching with your feet in the air, I know who to call.
[quote]panzerfaust wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Got a question, kind of pertaining to the standing vs seated debate.
I’ve always done lot of shoulder mobility work, and use to be one of those ‘i can’t bench because of my shoulders’ guys, but after working on form and RC strength, I never have shoulder pain any more, EXCEPT when doing standing OHP. Doesn’t matter if it’s just the bar, or is go down to my chest, or stop at the chin; when doing a STANDING OHP, my left shoulder starts immediately hurting, and makes a ‘crunch’ noise. The noise is loud enough that people in squat racks next to me, comment on the sound, suggesting I stop.
Seated, going to chin level, seated OHP is my favorite lift. But standing, it just kills me. Any ideas why this could be? And anyone have a similar issue??[/quote]
Sounds fucking horrible.
I have had repeat issues with RC / shoulder crunching / pain on bench and OHP. I only recently seem to have overcome them, via five things. You may already know/do all these, but here you go anyway:
-heaps of pec / delt stretching, both after workouts and during the day.
-doing a pulling movement (chins, DB rows) between every set of pushing.
-slowing the negative part of the lift. Apparently quick negatives leave you more prone to injury.
-elbow positioning; this was the crucial part for me. Maintaining a 45-50 degree angle makes my shoulders feel truly awesome, and after getting used to it, increased my OHP strength.
-thumbless grip for OHP. Allows a bit of freedom of movement and takes away all the pressure on my bicep tendon, which was a regular injury for me.
…I haven’t a clue why standing would mess your shoulder up more than seated. Perhaps you are leaning during the movement, and the different angle is aggravating your joint?[/quote]
Yeah, I do probably 2x, close to 3x as much pulling as pushing, and the elbow angle, along with thumbless grip, are all things I utilize. I also stretch often, to make sure I have good chest/delt flexibility for benching. IDK, it doesn’t bother me all that much, because I really like seated OHP, but I am always paranoid, knowing that for whatever reason, I can’t perform a basic compound movement for the life of me.
[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Got a question, kind of pertaining to the standing vs seated debate.
I’ve always done lot of shoulder mobility work, and use to be one of those ‘i can’t bench because of my shoulders’ guys, but after working on form and RC strength, I never have shoulder pain any more, EXCEPT when doing standing OHP. Doesn’t matter if it’s just the bar, or is go down to my chest, or stop at the chin; when doing a STANDING OHP, my left shoulder starts immediately hurting, and makes a ‘crunch’ noise. The noise is loud enough that people in squat racks next to me, comment on the sound, suggesting I stop.
Seated, going to chin level, seated OHP is my favorite lift. But standing, it just kills me. Any ideas why this could be? And anyone have a similar issue??[/quote]
Definitely a question for a doctor when the body starts crunching. With that said, let me give it a shot, because I am def. not a doctor:). The only thing that pops into my head is that you may have some scapular stability issues that are masked when you brace them against a bench, whether vertical.
When you were doing shoulder mobility did you also focus on scapular stability/ROM by doing ex. for the low and mid traps, rhomboids, serratus anterior?
From what I have read and seen shoulders are much like the back in that many people will have problems, and some will not, due to minor differences in their skeletal structure.
A simple impingement test is this. If your left shoulder hurts, take the left hand, place it on the right shoulder. Then raise the left elbow by rotating at the shoulder without shrugging. If you cannot get the elbow to the nose pain free, you should get to a doctor.[/quote]
Yea, lots of face pulls and bat wings. I mean, all that could definitely be stronger, but I mean, it seems strong enough to allow me to do EVERY other movement fine, so Idk. I tried the impingement thing, no pain, so that’s good.
I have went to a PT for is before, but he seemed to really not be too knowledgeable on lifters. He told me to keep ALL pressing movements to 20+ reps from now on (not for a few weeks, like, he told me there’s never a need for training in lower rep ranges, it’s “too dangerous”), saying that years of playing basketball possibly fucked up my shoulder. Idk, as long as I avoid the standing variation, I seem fine. It’s even there if I do DB presses, standing, with a neutral grip.
Yikes, don’t drag pressure and “distribution of force” into this debate. It doesn’t work like that.
Also consider that seated presses can be performed on a bench with a short back, so that a lot of the load is supported over the top of the bench back where the lats are contacting it. So yeah there would be less force on the lumbar spine if half the load is soaked up by the short seat.
I prefer sitting because my back is usually wrecked from deadlifting the day before. I also wear a belt to avoid over-arching the low back, which hurts.
[quote]arramzy wrote:
[quote]HydraulicFluid wrote:
[quote]StructureInChaos wrote:
[quote]HydraulicFluid wrote:
[quote]moshcamp wrote:
[quote]HydraulicFluid wrote:
To those saying that the seated OHP places more compressive force on the spine:
How exactly does that work? Assuming that the external load remains constant.
I would have thought that the compressive forces would have been equal in both scenarios if the spine was kept in the same position.
[/quote]
In scenario A (standing press), the load is disbursed over your entire body, from head to toe. In scenario B (seated press), the load is disturbed over your torso only, from head to hips. If the load remains constant yet the disbursement area is cut in half, then the load will be twice as much (relatively) on what’s bearing the load.[/quote]
This would make sense to me if you were talking about a surface that was perpendicular to the load being applied to it. Thats basically a pressure problem. (P = F/a) This doesn’t make sense to me for an object where the height is the only variable being changed.
[/quote]
You are right in this. Pressure = Force/Area.
However, your understanding of area and the spine is not clear. The compressive forces of a weight are distributed throughout the skeleton to the ground. So, when you are standing, the compressive forces are distributed throughout the arms, spinal cord, down the thick femur bones (the thigh bone), all the way down to your feet.
On the other hand, when seated, the compressive forces travel through the skeleton but end at the spinal cord. The tailbone, or the lowest lumbar vertebrae, is the closest point of contact with the chair you are in, which can be considered part of the ground since it is bearing much of your weight.
So, with this in mind, it becomes a simple physics problem.
Standing, the area increases due to the inclusion of the femur(thigh bone), tibia (shin bone), ankle joints, and feet. Thus, the pressure is decreased.
Sitting, the area decreases in comparison, so the pressure is increased.
Cheers to the overhead press![/quote]
I get what you’re trying to say but I think you’re using the pressure equation incorrectly. My understanding is that for pressure the force needs to perpendicular to the surface its being applied to. Considering this, a change in height (adding the legs) would make no difference to the pressure being applied to the spine.
Increasing or decreasing the thickness of the trunk would affect the pressure but not changing the height .
If the bar is held overhead in the hands then the line of action of the external force would run through the body. We can assume that the external force is equal at all points.
Something else that came to mind…The body is well equipped to handle compressive forces, especially the spine, shouldn’t we be making an effort to reduce shearing forces instead?
[/quote]
You are indeed MOSTLY correct. The thing to remember is distribution of force… There is lets say 100lb… If it is resting right on the ground, the normal force will be exactly the weight, and direct exactly straight upward into the weight. But now, we put the block on top of a chair. Now, the force is split and runs through the four legs. The pressure may be higher depending upon the size of the legs, but who cares - the force running through each will be less.
Now, we put a stool ontop of the chair with the weight on top. etc etc… So the idea is that the longer the path with more diversion etc will create a larger distribution of force. More distribution of force will mean les strain at each position… like the spine! (Think about building an arch bridge… Seems like it ought to be physically impossibly, but it’s merely the distribution spreading of the force/weight outwards through the arch that makes the middle seemingly weightless).[/quote]
We’re not talking about an arc or a chair, we’re talking about a spine. I understand what you’re trying to say but it doesn’t work the way you’re describing. The closest comparison would be a pillar. Load a pillar with 100lbs. Now put a platform with four legs below the pillar; the load on the pillar is still 100lbs. The fact that the legs are only supporting 25lbs doesn’t change what is acting on the pillar. Having said that, a pillar is too simple to adequately describe a spine, the curvature, multiple segments and the various muscles acting on it add to the complexity.
I’m not arguing that seated is safer, I just don’t agree with this particular explanation. It makes sense that activating the glutes and abs (standing) would protect the spine.
All the matters is increasing your total. Do what you need to, to get it done.
I dunno, I kinda like being able to make my comments. Singer syndrome, I suppose.
[quote]HydraulicFluid wrote:
We’re not talking about an arc or a chair, we’re talking about a spine. I understand what you’re trying to say but it doesn’t work the way you’re describing. The closest comparison would be a pillar. Load a pillar with 100lbs. Now put a platform with four legs below the pillar; the load on the pillar is still 100lbs. The fact that the legs are only supporting 25lbs doesn’t change what is acting on the pillar. Having said that, a pillar is too simple to adequately describe a spine, the curvature, multiple segments and the various muscles acting on it add to the complexity.
I’m not arguing that seated is safer, I just don’t agree with this particular explanation. It makes sense that activating the glutes and abs (standing) would protect the spine.
All the matters is increasing your total. Do what you need to, to get it done. [/quote]
Definitely your last statement is by far my favourite. as far as my explanation… The reason I chose to use chair and stool or whatever is because of the complexity of the body! Like you said, the spine can’t be a pillar, it’s wayyyyyy too simplistic. So what I was getting at, is that when you sit, all force must eventually focus down on your ass/tailbone. This spot happens to be the very base of the spine.
How the force is transmitted is thus focused to the most direct pathway. Which is mostly through the spine. Meanwhile, when we stand, the force obviously eventually goes from our feet to the ground. BUT when it passes our waist, it tracks all through the quads, hams, glutes, hips, bones etc… This then increases the distribution of forces and thus opens the transmission of force from our tailbone to the chair, to a less specific pathway through the spine then to all around our waist through the legs and then into the ground.
It is important to consider the skeletal positioning as well. Seeing as how when we sit the tail bone and pelvis are directly on the chair. This increases the transmission through the nice conducting hard bones… But like I said initially… Due to less optimal positioning when standing i feel it causes more stress on the spine so all of this argument is really insignificant… hahahahahaha
ANYWAYS… Just do what adds to your total lol
I started by doing them seated. I did seated ohp on my non benching upper body day years back. I would only bring the bar down to eye level. I think my best was 495.
Years later I did a strongman and then an APA meet both of which had a standing ohp. I ended up with a strict ohp of 400 and then 405. People asked me how I trained for my standing ohp. I really didn’t. I only spent about a month or so on the lift each time. I think it was all those years of seated that carried over.
In other words, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Do what you are comfortable with and SFW!
To throw my hat into the ring - I would say each has pros and cons.
Seated tends to be more natural and easy to do for most people, it doesn’t require the same level of shoulder flexibility as standing. Most people can do more weight seated, either with DB’s or barbells. I am sure some of that is due to lean back and using the back support, whatever. More weight is particularly good for size, which is why bodybuilders will normally do the seated version maybe even combined with a smith machine.
Standing clearly seems to be a better test of strength, the press used to be in the Olympics and I still believe that there is no single exercise that tests total body strength in one move better than a clean and press. It is also more functional (mimics real life) when you stand.
Which one helps the bench out more - not sure but looking at some former great lifters they would often talk about their impressive seated mil press but not as much about their overhead press. Seated may mimic the idea of pushing off of something similar to a bench press.
Which one is worse for you back? I have read the studies about the seated version being worse for the back. However, anecdotally I see and hear of many more injuries to the back with standing than seated. I think form can change too much, pelvic tilt can alter, poor flexibility is more of a problem with standing, etc. My feeling is that perhaps in a lab with light weight and perfect form and everything firing standing is safer, in the gym with max weight I would still put my money on seated being safer for a normal lifter. For example, do you feel the need to belt up when doing seated presses? Unlikely, but a belt is very useful when standing. Why? I know personally I “feel” my back and core much more when I do standing and I am more worried about something “going” than when I am seated, as long as my butt is back against the seat and my back isn’t super arched I feel fine even with significantly more weight than I can do standing. My .02 cents
Which one is worse for you back? I have read the studies about the seated version being worse for the back. However, anecdotally I see and hear of many more injuries to the back with standing than seated. I think form can change too much, pelvic tilt can alter, poor flexibility is more of a problem with standing, etc. My feeling is that perhaps in a lab with light weight and perfect form and everything firing standing is safer, in the gym with max weight I would still put my money on seated being safer for a normal lifter. For example, do you feel the need to belt up when doing seated presses? Unlikely, but a belt is very useful when standing. Why? I know personally I “feel” my back and core much more when I do standing and I am more worried about something “going” than when I am seated, as long as my butt is back against the seat and my back isn’t super arched I feel fine even with significantly more weight than I can do standing. My .02 cents[/quote]
I am starting to theorize that the chair may serve as a self limiting tool, meaning people know to protect their back, but with the satnding press may not realize that as they start to grind out reps their back is arching more and more. Also, alot of people tend to not brace standing, leaving the torso vulnerable. To me at least, seated almost forces you to brace to get the weight s up w/o slouching. It is also much easier to feel because of the back pad, when you are starting to arch the spine in a seated position, as opposed to standing.
Just something else to think about, FYI.
I have went to a PT for is before, but he seemed to really not be too knowledgeable on lifters. He told me to keep ALL pressing movements to 20+ reps from now on (not for a few weeks, like, he told me there’s never a need for training in lower rep ranges, it’s “too dangerous”), saying that years of playing basketball possibly fucked up my shoulder. Idk, as long as I avoid the standing variation, I seem fine. It’s even there if I do DB presses, standing, with a neutral grip.[/quote
So you are not going back to that guy right? Best advice I can give is try and find a FMS certified pt in your area. Getting an x ray would not hurt either.