OCD Nation

[quote]Kailash wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
The guys who know their shit, have internalized the principles of training, and train a bit free-style, and eat what they want, reasonably good, but not super-strict, and lots of it, those are the guys who are big.

And are you “big” at only 28.2 BMI? Sorry, deano, but once I’m dieted down to the same bf % as you, I’ll still be thicker.

The big difference? I’ve trained for 1 1/2 years compared to your 10+

…[/quote]

Once I add 100 pounds of muscle and win Mr. Olympia I will be bigger than both of you.

Seriously do you think you can be super anal about these things for 10 years or are you going to realize there is more to life and quit entirely?

Life is a journey, not a race.

I am not the biggest guy, but I went from 150 pounds in college to a max of 215 pounds and now am about 190 pounds.

At 190 pounds I still have the same waist size I had in college but I look better and am a lot stronger.

I have made many, many mistakes and learned many things. One of the keys to this is consistency and sustainablity.

You really have to set yourself with a lifestyle you can live with. If you can see yourself weighing your food for the rest of your life you are wired differently than I am.

You don’t get it. Dean holds himself out as an example, in the first post, of how planning doesn’t work as well as listening to the body or intuition.

Yet, I believe in planning, and have more lean thickness in 1/10 of the time than it’s taken him! That is no small matter.

And, yes, BMI is useful, when multiplied by body fat percentage. It then shows “lean thickness” and is the only real way to compare people of two differing heights (he’s 7 inches taller than me).

Me: 30.1 x .85 = 25.6
Dean: 28.2 x .89 = 25.1

A month ago, I was at 22% body fat. You don’t think I planned and perservered to be 15% just four weeks later? Why don’t any naysayers take a look at my blog, then maybe you will learn a little something about success.

Dean’s views seem extreme, that he only trains when he feels restless. You have to leave your comfort zone, to adapt to a new, higher standard (e.g. grow muscles). That’s obvious, and I hope you all know that.

For the most part I agree. However, I do want to say in the beginning for me being OCD helped me learn and build a lifestyle foundation. When I started lifting seriously ten years ago I read about the importance of grams of protein, carbs, fats, overall calories, and I kept a food log for about a year.

It was a pain in the ass writing down every meal and corresponding nutrient breakdown and adding them up every evening and I will never do that again. I had started out from a point of total nutritional ignorance not knowing the importance of protein and everything else from a hole in the ground. That year I saw great newbie gains and my foundation of knowledge was built from that OCD behavior and I still use the knowledge learned today as it’s filed in my head.

Now ten years later I don’t need to label, document, and count nutrients and I pretty much live it like Deano outlined it and love it. In the beginning though it was great to have that kind of new enthusiasm to learn the science behind the whole process of making gains. So, let’s not be to sanctimonious and remember where we came from.

Laters,

D

[quote]Kailash wrote:
You don’t get it. Dean holds himself out as an example, in the first post, of how planning doesn’t work as well as listening to the body or intuition.

Yet, I believe in planning, and have more lean thickness in 1/10 of the time than it’s taken him! That is no small matter.

And, yes, BMI is useful, when multiplied by body fat percentage. It then shows “lean thickness” and is the only real way to compare people of two differing heights (he’s 7 inches taller than me).

Me: 30.1 x .85 = 25.6
Dean: 28.2 x .89 = 25.1

A month ago, I was at 22% body fat. You don’t think I planned and perservered to be 15% just four weeks later? Why don’t any naysayers take a look at my blog, then maybe you will learn a little something about success.

Dean’s views seem extreme, that he only trains when he feels restless. You have to leave your comfort zone, to adapt to a new, higher standard (e.g. grow muscles). That’s obvious, and I hope you all know that.[/quote]

Kudo’s on your progress.

I have never heard the term “lean thickness”. Is it related to functional strength?

If you are losing 7% BF in 4 weeks - you are also probably losing muscle. At 1800 calories a day - I know you are.

You have experienced some nice newbie gains, and that is great - but don’t come in here with a year and a half of training and start telling folks how great you are. You were a fat ass that now thinks because he has lost weight he knows about training - or living a lifestyle.

Standing side by side with deano - I would bet you still look like a lard ass - regardless what your BMI bullshit tells you. And yes - BMI is bullshit.

You will not gain any traction or win any friends by slamming deano. Learn a little humility.

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
Now ten years later I don’t need to label, document, and count nutrients and I pretty much live it like Deano outlined it and love it. In the beginning though it was great to have that kind of new enthusiasm to learn the science behind the whole process of making gains. So, let’s not be to sanctimonious and remember where we came from.

Laters,

D[/quote]

I did the same thing. But I don’t consider learning something new as being obsessed.

At least when I was learning I kept my mouth shut and did it. Back in the day - people would have been shot and killed for being an anal dumbshit on the forums here.

I think that is the root of some of the frustration the Prof and Deano are voicing. I know it is for me.

Good insight, cheers, I’l bear it in mind. This is why I love this site: checks and balances all the way.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I have never heard the term “lean thickness”. Is it related to functional strength?[/quote]

BMI x (1-BF%) = lean thickness

I invented that term myself. I also tie it to the calculation above, which can give one their “lean thickness” score. In this way, BMI finally is useful.

You take the height to weight ratio (BMI), and multiply it by lean % (1 - bf%) = lean thickness. Doesn’t that make sense?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
If you are losing 7% BF in 4 weeks - you are also probably losing muscle. At 1800 calories a day - I know you are.[/quote]

Protein sparing modified fast. My arms and calves are the same size as before. I lost 2 1/2 inches on the waist.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You were a fat ass that now thinks because he has lost weight he knows about training - or living a lifestyle. [/quote]

February '05: 138 lbs 15% bf
August '06: 208 lbs 22% bf
October '06: 192 lbs 15% bf

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Standing side by side with deano - I would bet you still look like a lard ass - regardless what your BMI bullshit tells you. And yes - BMI is bullshit.[/quote]

Of course I would look flabby. 15% compared to 11% looks flabby.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You will not gain any traction or win any friends by slamming deano. Learn a little humility.[/quote]

He held himself out as an example. I compared my example (myself) to his.

I wouldn’t want to be an OCD trainer, as they would have no other life. But I wouldn’t want to be an ADD trainer either, because they don’t have the progress. End of story.

I agree with this approach as well.

On another note, in the time I’ve been lifting weights, I’ve seen articles that suggest the flat bench isn’t as good as other types of chest exercises. Some people seem to disregard the flat bench altogether. Maybe I won’t stimulate the fibers as much or maximize my gains, but I love to flat bench and try to max out, get this, because it’s fun!!!

jpb

[quote]Kailash wrote:
Dean’s views seem extreme, that he only trains when he feels restless. [/quote]

I didn’t read that. What I read was someone saying that he lets his body tell him what he needs to do… i.e. eating when hungry, sleeping when tired, training when rested.

Yes I know he said “restless” and I said “rested” but I think that is what he really meant. You don’t lift through pain and exhaustion just to stay on track with your program. You train when your body is ready to. I’m sure that keeps his attitude positive and his body less prone to injury.

I recently had a discussion with my boyfriend about the number of people on this site who spend more time talking big than they ever will spend training big. Some of the most frequent posters will throw up pictures and I’ll just think, damn, you’re awfully little for all the talk you do.

It’d be nice to have a community of more serious contributors who actually do all the hard work they talk about doing.

[quote]Kailash wrote:
I wouldn’t want to be an OCD trainer, as they would have no other life. But I wouldn’t want to be an ADD trainer either, because they don’t have the progress. End of story.[/quote]

SO let me get this straight. You invent a new standard based on the BMI, and hold yourself out as an example of greatness because the number you invented exceeded the number you invented for someone else?

Dude - get a clue.

No one is taking anything away from you accomplishments - but you are a nut.

There are way more on this thread that AGREE with the OP. You seem to think you are better than him because you have followed a plan.

I think you miss the big picture in that Deano, and the rest of us are tired of the anal retentive punks that are more into the details of the theory than they are the going out and doing.

I think you will have a lot to offer if you will just drop the attitude a notch or two - and fucking forget about the BMI as a standard.

I think you and the federal government are the only ones left in the world that think it is anything other than the bullshit it is.

Good post, I agree with alot of what your saying.

Although Im pretty anal about avoiding soy, Xenoestrogens and trans fatty acids, Im pretty much similar to you.

I get my training in a variety of ways. I have no set program. Nor do i keep a food log. Yep, I have a drink or two and yes, I indulge in the sticky green. It happens.

Oh man, now that I’ve seen this post I can take comfort knowing that some people will get my ‘Intuitive Eating’ spiel.

This is a great post. The body is too complex to turn into an exact science, everything that counts cannot be counted!
Taking a moment to see where you are in relation to your goals is all you need to achieve them. So much energy is wasted with the constant analyzing. Definitely like you said, missing the forest for the trees.

Lifting is SOOO much easier than many on this site make it out to be. I understand the informational overload this site presents when first coming here but once you’ve got the basics down, everything else is just icing on the cake. I think the problem starts when people who’ve never lifted try to jump into the iron and lift like they’ve been doing it for years just because they’ve “read” about it or think they “know” what they’re doing. Everyone is different, from a physiological perspective, right on down to their motivations for moving heavy things. You can’t know, unless you first do.

If you aren’t where you want to be, you’re probably doing something wrong. I got in the game a long time ago and was lucky enough to find someone to show me how “easy” it really is…

I remember being 13 and walking into a gym for the 1st time. All 5’6" 107lbs of me walked up to the owner’s brother and asked “How do I get jacked like you???”

He proceeded explain to me to eat as much as I could and then eat some more. Stay away from soda, candy, chips, and dessert…except for ice cream once in a while. I told him I eat a ton of food to which he replied “OBVIOUSLY, not enough you scrawny bastard.”

He then told me to squat, DL, bench, leg press, incline bench, do pullups/chinups, t-bar/bent over rows, militar/arnold presses, lunges, and shrugs. I asked “What about curls, triceps pushdowns, crunches, calf raises, and side/front/rear dumbell laterals???” He replied “Shut up, do what I say, don’t do any of the exercises you asked about until you turn 18, and don’t follow any routine you’ve seen in a magazine.”

I asked him “how many sets/reps of each exercise?” He tells me “Do 2-3 exercises for each muscle group, 3 sets of 5 reps for each exercise, and lift as heavy as you can with good form. Don’t move up on the weight until you can do 3 sets for 5 reps at one specific weight.” I asked “I thought you had do 8-12 reps to get big, under 8 reps will only get me strong not big, right?” He replies “No dumbass, strong muscles are usually big muscles and what’s the point of being big, if you aren’t as strong as you look”

I asked him what body parts I should train together. He says “Chest/back, Shoulders/Traps, Legs and repeat. Train 2 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on 2 days off, and start w/ the next bodypart in line. Train HARD for 8 weeks and then take 1 week off, but come to the gym, walk on the treadmill, smell the smells, see the sights, and watch how people train” I say “How is it a week “off” if I’m still coming to the gym?” He replies “Shaddup, and do as I say. You’ll never miss a workout if you make coming to the gym a life long routine. Weeks away can lead to months away can lead to years away from the iron…”

Let me tell you that the ONLY times I haven’t progres were the times I didn’t follow his advice. I’ve lifted on and off for the past 17 years, and his advice made me love lifting even more. It was easy to follow, easy to succeed with, and kept me interested in lifting because I had a place to go back to whenever my body or lifts stagnated. Thank you Jim Sansone for all your advice and If I ever see you again…I’ll thank you in person.

I am with Deano 100% on this one. Some people are taking his intent a little far. He didn’t say don’t work hard, he didn’t say don’t watch your food, he said dont obsess over small things and it will help progress. Those who took it at face value, without reading too far into it, understood and probably already partake in the action behind the message. Those he was talking about, are proving exactly what he said.

Lifting is a hobby, an addition to our lives, to make our lives better. It is NOT life itself. Eating by an alarm clock, sitting home instead of going out, and putting yourself through agony is not enjoying life, or lifting. I enjoy them both, and will continue to. I will do it without peculiar obsessions, and without depravation.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
SO let me get this straight. You invent a new standard based on the BMI, and hold yourself out as an example of greatness because the number you invented exceeded the number you invented for someone else?

Dude - get a clue.

No one is taking anything away from you accomplishments - but you are a nut.[/quote]

So what you’re saying, is that you failed elementary math. Good going, buddy.

By the way, I’ve decided to call this calculation LMI (Lean Mass Index), and yes, it is useful and accurate.

Take a look at the BMI formula here:

The LMI calcuation is just like Quelet’s, only using lean mass as the numerator.

It’s an instant appraisal of one’s lean mass, disregarding height. That’s why I was referring to it as “lean thickness”.

[quote]Kailash wrote:
I really can’t make it any more simple. But I will say this: I don’t cotton much to advice from someone who has trained for 10 years to have a LMI less than mine after 1 1/2, particularly when this advice is basically to allow more slack. Either they have different goals than me, or they suck at our shared goals.

Again, case closed.[/quote]

Yeah. I’m an accountant and I need math lessons from a newb that makes up his own formulas with no basis other BMI. Face it shorty - you are in over your head.

Try multiplying your LBM by your height. That will give you LBM per foot. Easy and to the pint without using the BMI. OF course being so close to the fucking ground - you would only need to weigh about 120 pounds to be at 10 pounds/foot.

I tried being nice and giving you props - but you won’t have it. You are a short fat fuck that has a hard on for people who have been doing this for longer than you have been off your mommy’s tit.

But you go ahead and make up what ever number you need to to make you feel taller and bigger than you will ever be in a photo.

I’ll take my ten years and my progress over being a fat fuck with little man’s syndrome anyday.

Call me when you are over 40 with over 200 pounds of LBM. Until then stay in the shallow end - you are not tall enough to handle my end.

[quote]Kailash wrote:
rainjack wrote:
SO let me get this straight. You invent a new standard based on the BMI, and hold yourself out as an example of greatness because the number you invented exceeded the number you invented for someone else?

Dude - get a clue.

No one is taking anything away from you accomplishments - but you are a nut.

So what you’re saying, is that you failed elementary math. Good going, buddy.

By the way, I’ve decided to call this calculation LMI (Lean Mass Index), and yes, it is useful and accurate.

Take a look at the BMI formula here:

The LMI calcuation is just like Quelet’s, only using lean mass as the numerator.

It’s an instant appraisal of one’s lean mass, disregarding height. That’s why I was referring to it as “lean thickness”.[/quote]

Are you being serious? You are carrying just over 160lbs of lean body mass (going by the stats in your profile). D is carrying 196lbs of lean body mass. We understand that you are shorter, but the crap you are spouting is the same as little guys who try to use “relative strength” to make themselves feel better about being “absolutely weaker” than that huge guy in the corner lifting more than they can.

Do you understand the effort it takes to get anywhere near or above 200lbs of lean body mass on your frame at close to 6 feet in height? There are guys your height COMPETING at over 200lbs in contest shape and that isn’t even on the pro level.

Some simple advice is to not try to degrade people in terms of bodybuilding who are truly carrying that much more size than you are.

Are you even more developed than him?

To Kailash;

Im 215 at about 8% bf. That would make my lean mass about 198. It is rough for every single pound of LBM. You can make up as many mathematical figures as you like and it will not change the fact that Deano is huge, Prof X is huge, I’m medium and you’re small.

I think taking away from his achievements, and ridiculing Deano while all the while proving his point is a waste of your time, and an indicator of your level of class.

[quote]Kailash wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
The guys who know their shit, have internalized the principles of training, and train a bit free-style, and eat what they want, reasonably good, but not super-strict, and lots of it, those are the guys who are big.

And are you “big” at only 28.2 BMI? Sorry, deano, but once I’m dieted down to the same bf % as you, I’ll still be thicker.

The big difference? I’ve trained for 1 1/2 years compared to your 10+

And that’s only at an estimated “60% OCD power rating”. Results ARE commiserate with performance.

."[/quote]

I don’t want to get into a penis-waving competition with you Kailash. I’m no Prof X or Amsterdam Animal, but I am reasonably big and have good proportions. I’m a size that enables me a good compromise between speed, stamina and power on the rugby field.

Lots of girls come up to me in the street or bars and want to touch my chest or arms. You’re a short fat guy. Until you do diet down, any talk of being relatively bigger than me is just talk.

If you want longevity in this game, you need to take a step back sometimes. Enjoy the journey, as Zap and Rainjack said.

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
I am with Deano 100% on this one. Some people are taking his intent a little far. He didn’t say don’t work hard, he didn’t say don’t watch your food, he said dont obsess over small things and it will help progress. Those who took it at face value, without reading too far into it, understood and probably already partake in the action behind the message. Those he was talking about, are proving exactly what he said.

Lifting is a hobby, an addition to our lives, to make our lives better. It is NOT life itself. Eating by an alarm clock, sitting home instead of going out, and putting yourself through agony is not enjoying life, or lifting. I enjoy them both, and will continue to. I will do it without peculiar obsessions, and without depravation. [/quote]

Thank you. I couldn’t have said it better. I think a few misinterpreted my intent. I am all for eating well and training hard. Hell, I put in some brutal workouts the last few days. I am just against the anal approach I see from some on T-Nation. I do acknowledge though that careful planning may be particularly beneficial for beginners.

I just came back from a mountain bike ride of about an hour. I followed a river which winds its way up into some foothills. It’s a beautiful day here. I didn’t do it to burn fat, though I probably did. I didn’t measure my heart rate. I did it for fun.