T Nation

Observations After Stopping TRT - Update - Gynecomastia surgery 4/24

T Replacement
#1

I stopped TRT 3 weeks ago last Sunday and have noticed a couple things I wanted to share.

First 3 weeks I continued HCG.

My balls are fuller and hanging again.
I am more tired but that is fairly recent.
I have lower libido but that as well seems like a symptom that just got really noticeable the last week.
I have dropped weight fairly effortlessly. I think I was retaining a lot of water. I was 211 this morning and had been 215 and higher for the most part. I have not injected HCG in 3 days and may discontinue that as well and am thinking that was perhaps a big part of the water retention/bloating.

I stopped for a couple reasons.

I was puffy and had a lot of water weight in my chest on my protocol. I think I’m one of those guys that does not do well on HCG. It was giving me a bit of gyno-chest swelling that was a giant drag.

I noticed I had almost no sperm in my ejaculate and considering I paid 10K for a vas reversal for pain 6 years ago I was worried I would “scar over” and all that would be for nothing. I doubt I would mind as much if I had had my testicles and spermatic cords mangled twice. I was in excruciating chronic pain for 5 years after my vasectomy prior to reversal, mostly neuropathic pain/impingement but I had one bout of epididymitis where my right nut swelled up, think fire hose with a knot in it. So getting the reversal (which was successful) was psychologically important for me. If I went through all that pain and expense just to scar over (TRT was discouraged by my reversal doc as the flow of sperm helps keep the surgical repair open) it would really mess with my head.

My question now is do you guys think I should get on Clomid through Defy? My levels were between 350 and 400 prior to my first experience with exogenous T, which was brief and immediately led me to seek out a reputable clinic.

Thanks,

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#2

Updating here again to ask, should I request Clomid? Thanks.

#3

What was the count from the lab?

#4

I think you can inject FSh and HCG concurrently for fertility. You can stay on trt when doing this.

If your body is infertile on HCG, it’s probably infertile off TRT. Is this true or false. It’s what I was
Told.

#5

I used to pay for SA’s. They are too expensive. After my reversal my numbers got pretty high, higher than prior to reversal when my wife and I were trying to get pregnant in the late 90s. I had counts of 250M total with like 67%motility. I think the concentration at it’s highest was 115MM but it settled in at around 65MM.

After reversal I would get it checked obsessively and then got tired of dropping 150 bucks ever 6 months/a year.

I bought a microsoft from Amazon and started doing empirical checks myself. So I don’t know what the number is but I can tell you it went from a lot on one slide to 1 or 2 recently. I don’t need to count to know the number is almost nil now.

#6

Interesting. Cheers to home chemistry!

#7

What you need a is a modern TRT protocol and not 200mg cycled over a period of a month.

A huge percentage of men fail to hold onto high normal T after withdrawing clomid.

TRT is the end game here.

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#8

@systemlord, I was on a modern TRT protocol for 3 months.

-Testosterone Cyp 200 mg/ml –inject 0.35 ml IM/SQ twice weekly (25G, 5/8” needle/ (1cc syringe Luer only)
-HCG 500 iu inject SQ twice weekly to reverse/prevent testicular atrophy
-Anastrozole 0.125mg twice weekly – h/o elevated E2, titrate on follow-up
-DHEA 25 mg at bedtime
-Vitamin D3 5000 iu daily
-Fish oil 3-4 g daily for HDL support

I did the above protocol for 3 months with only slight modifications.

I was on my AI 4x a week briefly because I was getting tits and then changed the HCG from 500 twice a week to 140 daily. The chest swelling went down some at around that time. I went to Test EOD at .20ml as well to even things out and use smaller doses. For 2 months the amounts I was on were the same just dosing changes.

In the last month I dropped my AI due to everyone here, you included, saying people should drop their AI and dropped down to 100mg test a week from 140mg and kept the HCG the same daily.

My total T was around 370 prior to doing anything. I am not sure what the other numbers were since GPs don’t order those tests. I may get surgery for slight gyno and wanted to see where I could get to naturally. I felt better on TRT in a lot of ways but I’ve listed my issues above. I may end up back on it but i did give it controlled try. I don’t like how HCG makes me carry water and did not want to get into a balancing act with an AI.

Back to my question. Is it recommended to try Clomid to jumpstart things/avoid a hard crash as you body readjusts? I understand Clomid is transient at best. I just wanted to know if failure to do some sort of PCT results in anything more than prolonged discomfort as your body once again transitions to doing everything on it’s own. I’m wondering if it’s worth the trouble.

#9

HCG can cause water retention, you should have dial-in on TRT only, adding HCG later in the game. If you weren’t prepared to give TRT at least a year, then you are wasting your time.

It takes 6-12 month to see big changes on TRT.

A lot of men do better on smaller more frequent dosing, I inject 20mg every 2 days or I bloat up like a hippo. I had even less bloat on daily dosing. Currently I’m not on HCG or AI’s.

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#10

Have you consulted a real TRT doc or jsut uros and endos and bros?

#11

That’s funny. I think seeing little to no sperm in my ejacualte kind of freaked me out. You have to remember I was in a state of pain so great prior to my vas reversal i was nearly suicidal and disabled. I was emotionally crazed because a little man with a red hot iron would come visit me in my sleep every night and he would cram that red hot needle into my groin and I would come full awake heart pounding it hurt so bad. I can’t explain to you what it’s like to be exhausted but not able to sleep because of pain. It’s torture. It’s horrible. The reversal saved my life and one of the things that comforted me was seeing swimmers again. I still have issue sitting sometimes but can function now. So seeing that taper off caused me a lot of distress. Countering with HCG would probably exacerbate some of the “hippo” issues (especially in my tits) . Yeah it sucks. I could live with a little hair loss but I have some issues other guys don’t. We’re all unique. I’m just trying to be as smart about my decision as possible.

#12

Yes. I know that 95% of GPs and Uros are generally worthless when it comes to TRT, like they are when it comes to treating chronic pain post vasectomy. You go to the best and folks that specialize in those things when you have those problems. I flew to Arizona from DC to get my vas reversal from the guy recognized as the best in the country. Money well spent. Dude saved my life.

I was at Defy with a good physician and followed his protocol.

I’m not one of those guys. I just made a decision and am wanting to be smart about it.
To summarize:
a)Gyno
b)Not willing to let go of fertility and what that means for me based on the fucked up experience I had with vasectomy
c)I was not clinically low T last year and think I can get back there
d)I may end up back on it one day.

#13

Ok good luck. I’m a little lost why you think you can not regain fertility on trt. HCG isn’t the only option. You can inject fsh (I think that’s it) and or take chlomid for a bit while trying to get pregnant. Has anyone explained this to you?

I know the pain man I was up crying in pain for 5/6 days after my gallbladder surgery. Lost 15-20 lbs and it still haunts me. The pain wa sunbelievable. I could t sleep for more than 15 mins and the asshole Doctors would not presbive anything stronger… mother fishers…

Any time I get a surgery in the future I’m getting my hands on some very strong opiates. Never again…

#14

I had chronic pain for the better part of 5 years after my vasectomy. Toward the end it was every night and every day at work. I couldn’t sit. I couldn’t work. I couldn’t take long care trips, or sit for any appreciable amount of time. I couldn’t control it. I didn’t know what was causing it and when I started to realize it might be my vasectomy/scar tissue I couldn’t get anyone to acknowledge my vasectomy might be the problem until near the end when I decided to try reversal surgery. I almost committed suicide over it and it nearly destroyed my marriage. So I have issues with the surgery that saved my life maybe being undone by TRT.

I’ve also noticed people take an adversarial tone when you ask for advice going off TRT, for any reason. I am not sure what that’s all about. If there’s a right way to do TRT there is a right way to come off of it for whatever reason.

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#15

No it’s just crazy to most folks because the body is not going to just kick back on and at the same
Levels before you started. I’ve never heard of it. Even if your body was fine before trt. Your better off going to pharma and make sure you get those guys advice.

There are plenty of folks who went on long cycles and regretted it because there systems never came back online fully with a good PCT.

The tone is more out of self fear. I can’t imagine getting off it after a year. So when you say it, were trying to convince you this is a bad idea.

Im sure most can’t imagine why anyone would want to put themselves through that. There are two or three recent posts here from guys who thought they could do it and exclaimed it was mental hell. They got back on trt. Guys who used trt long term and had to come off for whatever reason…: not trying to be negative. Just haven’t seen it happen.

Just be glad people care enough to bark at ya :slight_smile:

#16

Another thing, I am down to 210 this morning. This is big because I had been in a metabolic rut last fall and could not get below 215.

TRT was weight neutral for me. I suspect my body composition drastically changed from fat to muscle and water. Now that I’m off I suspect I’m losing some muscle mass but also a lot of water weight… I am looking trim and still have some strength. I think I burned through a lot of visceral fat. That may be one of the reasons I bloated a lot the first month or so because I was aromatizing a lot of the T and releasing a lot of estrogen with the fasting. I was NOT losing weight though. It was weird. I knew things were changing but was always between 215 and 220.

I feel like complete crap in the morning this last week and my dick is in the dirt libido wise but I’ve had some good focus at work and my energy once I get going is pretty good.

I felt bloated on TRT and my kidney function isn’t the best so it may be a better choice for me to go natural for a while. If I can get down to 205 and stay there maybe my hormone profile will improve. I think the next few months are going to suck though. That’s why I was asking for advice here.

I thought I would stay on TRT but I was unhappy with some of the side effects that were going on for me (just me, not implying my choice and experience is everyone else’s).

#17

I called Defy and have an appointment tomorrow where I will ask them about discontinuation. Can anyone tell me what to expect from them.

We have so many Defy customers here I wanted to know what sort of protocol they normally recommend.

#18

You should have no trouble asking Defy to help you get back to natty. They are not a T mill.
They can sell you the PCT meds if you want to try a restart. Ask them about Novedex XT* as one PCT as well as clomid and HCG with an AI. They have them all.

  • Gaspari Nutrition Novedex XT is a patent-pending formula that is significantly better than any of the competition in modulating estrogen levels and increasing natural testosterone levels.
#19

Hcg essentially nullified all positive effects of trt for me. I’m on TRT and Clomid right now and feel better than I ever did on TRT, hcg and an ai.

#20

Are you talking about Legit Nolvadex/tamoxifen?

I think this is just some junk fake PCT crap they sell OTC. At least that’s what it was back in 07.