T Nation

Obama's Turn?

During the campaign:

“…we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,”

Early Saturday:

Afghan president: US forces killed 16 civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

Also on Saturday:
President Obama ‘orders Pakistan drone attacks’
“Eight people died when missiles hit a compound near Mir Ali, an al-Qaeda hub in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. Seven more died when hours later two missiles hit a house in Wana, in South Waziristan. Local officials said the target in Wana was a guest house owned by a pro-Taleban tribesman. One said that as well as three children, the tribesman’s relatives were killed in the blast.”

How long before demonstrations around the world are held against him? Couple of months? A year?

It all depends on what he does. He’s only been in a week. I’m sure there will be fuck ups like this for as long as these ‘wars’ go on. Things like this are what helps AQ recruitment. Obama and his advisors have to realize this in order to get things on the right track. Right now Obama is new enough that he will get a pass to some extent. But if things like this continue, we will not improve our world standing and Obama will be blasted, and I will be first in line.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
During the campaign:

“…we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,”

Early Saturday:

Afghan president: US forces killed 16 civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

Also on Saturday:
President Obama ‘orders Pakistan drone attacks’
“Eight people died when missiles hit a compound near Mir Ali, an al-Qaeda hub in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. Seven more died when hours later two missiles hit a house in Wana, in South Waziristan. Local officials said the target in Wana was a guest house owned by a pro-Taleban tribesman. One said that as well as three children, the tribesman’s relatives were killed in the blast.”

How long before demonstrations around the world are held against him? Couple of months? A year?
[/quote]

I agree with this move by Obama. Pakistan, though and ally, is either not helping or flat harboring the Taliban, Al qaeda and Bin Laden. Pakistan has been laying there like a gunny sack. It?s time to violate their borders and take care of business.

However, you are mistaken about the protests, the media is all for Obama, he is going to get a free pass from the media until such day that he manages to piss them off like Clinton did. Most of the negatives will not be reported. Just the successes. They are going to prove he can succeed where Bush failed.

Know this, Obama will not let Iraq and Afghanistan fail under his watch. It was fine to fail when Bush was the scape goat, but now it’s squarely on his shoulders, you can bet he’ll play both sides to get it done.But no matter what, the media will give him a free pass on whatever.You just won’t here about the negatives. Bottom line.

[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
It all depends on what he does. He’s only been in a week. [/quote]

In less than a week he has already shown extreme incompetence with his handling of Guantanamo and even more incompetence with his idiotic handling of interrogations. [quote]

I’m sure there will be fuck ups like this for as long as these ‘wars’ go on. [/quote]

We are at war.

[quote]
Things like this are what helps AQ recruitment. [/quote]

They have been recruiting people for a long time. If we let that become an impediment to doing what we have to do we are never going to kill enough of them to win this war.

[quote]
Obama and his advisors have to realize this in order to get things on the right track. [/quote]

His advisers have already shown themselves to be incompetent and full of shit in less than a week. They are idiots and their learning curve is going to require a lot of dead Americans before they will admit they are wrong.

[quote]
Right now Obama is new enough that he will get a pass to some extent. But if things like this continue, we will not improve our world standing and Obama will be blasted, and I will be first in line. [/quote]

Obama made a campaign promise that he is going to take the war into Pakistan and flood the valleys of Afghanistan with troops. Look for things to get a lot worse.

[quote]pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
During the campaign:

“…we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,”

Early Saturday:

Afghan president: US forces killed 16 civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

Also on Saturday:
President Obama ‘orders Pakistan drone attacks’
“Eight people died when missiles hit a compound near Mir Ali, an al-Qaeda hub in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. Seven more died when hours later two missiles hit a house in Wana, in South Waziristan. Local officials said the target in Wana was a guest house owned by a pro-Taleban tribesman. One said that as well as three children, the tribesman’s relatives were killed in the blast.”

How long before demonstrations around the world are held against him? Couple of months? A year?

I agree with this move by Obama. Pakistan, though and ally, is either not helping or flat harboring the Taliban, Al qaeda and Bin Laden. Pakistan has been laying there like a gunny sack. It?s time to violate their borders and take care of business. [/quote]

The realities of Pakistan are such that we can’t just go blasting our way in there while telling everyone our business.

Unfortunately Obama may feel so indebted to the media for getting him elected, that he will feel pressured to let them publicise what we are doing in Pakistan so they can sell newspapers and get people to watch newscasts. But it won’t be in our best interests to do that.

Pakistan is a fragile mess with nuclear weapons that we could easily break apart pushing them too hard in public. There is substantial Taliban support in the major cities. It isn’t just the tribal areas that have to be sorted out.

[quote]
However, you are mistaken about the protests, the media is all for Obama, he is going to get a free pass from the media until such day that he manages to piss them off like Clinton did. Most of the negatives will not be reported. Just the successes. They are going to prove he can succeed where Bush failed. [/quote]

Alqaeda is no friend of Obama. If the press will not publicize his failures they will do something the press can’t ignore.

If the Iraqi’s can’t hold their country together Obama will not go out of his way. He will just pull out and let the Iranians take it over.

Afghanistan is questionable too. You can’t just flood a mountainous country with troops and expect that to work, because the terrain is not conducive to that kind of strategy.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
During the campaign:

“…we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,”

Early Saturday:

Afghan president: US forces killed 16 civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

Also on Saturday:
President Obama ‘orders Pakistan drone attacks’
“Eight people died when missiles hit a compound near Mir Ali, an al-Qaeda hub in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. Seven more died when hours later two missiles hit a house in Wana, in South Waziristan. Local officials said the target in Wana was a guest house owned by a pro-Taleban tribesman. One said that as well as three children, the tribesman’s relatives were killed in the blast.”

How long before demonstrations around the world are held against him? Couple of months? A year?

I agree with this move by Obama. Pakistan, though and ally, is either not helping or flat harboring the Taliban, Al qaeda and Bin Laden. Pakistan has been laying there like a gunny sack. It?s time to violate their borders and take care of business.

The realities of Pakistan are such that we can’t just go blasting our way in there while telling everyone our business.
[/quote]
I agree. Never lay your cards on the table. Do it and deny you did it. It’s war and information is a weapon, so is confusion.

Shutting up is a good idea. No war plans should ever be made public…It’s just stupid. I disagreed with it in the onset of the war too. Don’t tell them your going to bomb them, just do it. Clean house and leave.

As normal they will use the arab media to get their message out, but their capabilities are limited for a media blitz. Obama will get a pass…No dead babies on TV.

I disagree. Even if he wanted to he could not because it would be a disaster on the magnitude that even the media would have to criticize. It would completely destabilize the Middle East. Not that it’s stable now, but even if WE let Iran take over, the rest of the region would have a shit-fit.

[quote]
Afghanistan is questionable too. You can’t just flood a mountainous country with troops and expect that to work, because the terrain is not conducive to that kind of strategy. [/quote]

True, but you still have to strive to demolish the Al Talian. You can just give up a leave. That too would be a disaster.

AF claims civilians. US claims militants.
Same old story. …just watch the drone tapes.

Actually, Barry is probably the only person that could get away with this. If it was Bush the international community would be screaming. Maybe he will indeed be able to accomplish some things internationally that GWB could not, due to his apparent international celebrity. Kind of an Eddie Haskell routine.

I remember watching a presidential debate with a number of Pakistani friends. Now, keep in mind these were all highly educated, living in america types. But their view, and a good one I think, was that sending drones/fighters/whatever after OBL in Pakistan was fine and “not really invading Pakistan…unless he invaded Islamabad…and if OBL is in Islamabad, America should invade”

Obama?s War on Terror May Resemble Bush?s in Some Areas

Obama sides with Bush on Bagram detainees
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090221/wl_asia_afp/usafghanistanattacksguantanamoprisonjustice

[quote]Sloth wrote:
During the campaign:

“…we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,”

Early Saturday:

Afghan president: US forces killed 16 civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

Also on Saturday:
President Obama ‘orders Pakistan drone attacks’
“Eight people died when missiles hit a compound near Mir Ali, an al-Qaeda hub in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. Seven more died when hours later two missiles hit a house in Wana, in South Waziristan. Local officials said the target in Wana was a guest house owned by a pro-Taleban tribesman. One said that as well as three children, the tribesman’s relatives were killed in the blast.”

How long before demonstrations around the world are held against him? Couple of months? A year?
[/quote]

You of course realize he’s sending the troops do just said what he said he was going to do?

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
During the campaign:

“…we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,”

Early Saturday:

Afghan president: US forces killed 16 civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

Also on Saturday:
President Obama ‘orders Pakistan drone attacks’
“Eight people died when missiles hit a compound near Mir Ali, an al-Qaeda hub in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. Seven more died when hours later two missiles hit a house in Wana, in South Waziristan. Local officials said the target in Wana was a guest house owned by a pro-Taleban tribesman. One said that as well as three children, the tribesman’s relatives were killed in the blast.”

How long before demonstrations around the world are held against him? Couple of months? A year?

You of course realize he’s sending the troops do just said what he said he was going to do? [/quote]

To do what? To march into Pakistan? Or, to ‘win’ in Afghanistan? How many will he be sending, for how long, and at how much of a cost?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
During the campaign:

“…we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,”

Early Saturday:

Afghan president: US forces killed 16 civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

Also on Saturday:
President Obama ‘orders Pakistan drone attacks’
“Eight people died when missiles hit a compound near Mir Ali, an al-Qaeda hub in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. Seven more died when hours later two missiles hit a house in Wana, in South Waziristan. Local officials said the target in Wana was a guest house owned by a pro-Taleban tribesman. One said that as well as three children, the tribesman’s relatives were killed in the blast.”

How long before demonstrations around the world are held against him? Couple of months? A year?

You of course realize he’s sending the troops do just said what he said he was going to do?

To do what? To march into Pakistan? Or, to ‘win’ in Afghanistan? How many will he be sending, for how long, and at how much of a cost?
[/quote]

Look I’ll be honest here, I of course am against Obama on most things, but scaling up the war in Afghanistan I am for. Strategically speaking, all our marbles should have been in Afghanistan in the first place. This war should have been over by now and OBL and cronies should be dead or getting pounded in the ass daily in some really nasty prison. Pakistan can kiss my ass, they made a deal with the Taliban and basically threw all the people who live their to the wolves. So, in turn, we must concentrate our fire power their. Musharraf was our friend, this new government is not, so fuck them. We have a problem we need to solve and it happens to be on their soil because they let that happen, so we must go there and fuck some shit up.

It is of course important not to leave Iraq to the terrorists either. Iraq is Bush’s bastard child, but we have to finish the business we should have never started.

THE_CLAMP_DOWN - Is that Martin Van Buren in your avatar? Fitting to think about him these days re: Panic of 1837 :wink:

I would love someone to explain to me why the Allies are in Afghanistan engaged in an unwinnable combat - they will loose both the war and lives (and lots of them) and achieve nothing… really there has to be a better way. The Allies have lost the support of the local people. History will repeat itself.