T Nation

Obama's Income Rredistribution/Economic Plan

A good read which outlines Opies redistribution plan. This guy would be an economic train wreck without question. Does Obama think that his plan will keep corporations in the US? Good grief.

Marxist ideoligy gone wild.

[i]September 23, 2008 

[b]Obama's "Tax Cut" is Income Redistribution[/b]
By Ken Blackwell

During his Fox News interview with Bill O'Reilly, Sen. Barack Obama responded to one question where the statistics contradicted his position by saying that "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics." He then went on to say that 95 percent of Americans would get a tax break under his economic plan. 

That's ironic, because his comment on "damned lies and statistics" is the perfect commentary on his own plan. Taken with Sen. Joe Biden's novel definition of patriotism, Team Obama is making an argument that Americans have never bought.

The statistics speak for themselves. Only 62 percent of Americans pay federal income tax, meaning that 38 percent get a 100 percent refund of any taxes withheld. So Mr. Obama's 95 percent that will receive money from the government includes roughly 33 percent of Americans who pay no income tax. 

One-third of Americans pay no income taxes yet would receive a government check of perhaps $1,000 or more. 

That is pure income redistribution. Some pundits argue that this is Keynesian demand-side economics. It is not. Having the government take money from business entities or affluent individuals and giving it to those who pay no federal income taxes is not Keynesian. It's Marxist.

American voters don't buy Team Obama's arguments. A recent Gallup poll shows that 53 percent of Americans believe that Mr. Obama would raise their taxes. A recent Zogby poll shows a majority of Americans understand that raising taxes will hurt the economy.

Energy prices have pounded the U.S. economy. The recent woes on Wall Street have further shaken our weakened economy. Certain pillars of our economy, such as productivity gains and American ingenuity, continue to be powerful economic assets. 

But the current debt situation, spending trends, the cost of combating global terrorism, along with the energy crisis, leaves our economy in a truly precarious position.

Most credible economists warn that raising taxes during an economic downturn only makes the situation worse. Given our current economic situation, Mr. Obama's tax plan is the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a fire.

Then we come to the Team Obama fantasy that the Obama plan would cut taxes for most Americans. Yes, Mr. Obama says he will cut rates for lower-income Americans, but will more than offset that by raising taxes on dividends, capital gains, higher incomes, corporations, estates, and payrolls. 

But most Americans own stock, either directly or through their IRA, 401k or union pensions. Dividend and capital gains taxes will take money from all those. Those Americans on Main Street who own a house or have other investments will be punished by a capital gains tax increase.

Businesses and corporations do not pay taxes; we do. Businesses don't have huge piles of money sitting in the closet that they simply turn over to government when taxes increase. For every dollar that you increase taxes on a business, they simply increase their prices by a dollar. 

Who then pays the tax? We do. We do, when the product that we bought last week for $20 suddenly costs $21.

Mr. Obama's plan for universal health care and increased spending on just about everything costs hundreds of billions of dollars. To keep his promises to provide those things while eliminating the deficit and giving checks to lower-income families, he will have to raise taxes by hundreds of billions of dollars. 

But if lower-income Americans receive a check for $1,000 under the Obama plan yet have to pay $2,000 more when buying food and clothes, they are worse off.

Affluent Americans have not had a tax holiday during the Bush administration. Most analysts agree that the affluent pay more under Mr. Bush. In 2000, the top 1 percent of earners paid less than one-third of all income tax; now they pay 40 percent. The affluent already carry more of the burden.

The ancient Roman philosopher Pliny the Elder once said, "In wine there is truth." It means that people tell you what they really think once they have a couple of drinks.

I don't think Mr. Biden was drinking on the campaign trail last week, but it was a rare moment of complete candor when he told ABC News that people who are well-off have a patriotic duty to pay higher taxes. 

That perfectly states the liberal Democratic philosophy that those who do the right things in their personal life to make more money have an obligation not only to pay more taxes (which they do even under a flat tax because 17 percent of higher-income is more than 17 percent of lower-income), but that they should pay an ever-higher additional percentage on top of that. 

Liberal Democrats consider it patriotic to pay more taxes, and have a consistent record of voting to help nurture our patriotism for us.

That reveals what is really going on here. The statistics don't lie. Team Obama's plan is not economically prudent, and it's not a patriotic tonic for what ails our economy. 

Mr. Blackwell is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council, the American Civil Rights Union and the Buckeye Institute in Ohio. 
Page Printed from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/obamas_patriotic_tonic.html at September 22, 2008 - 11:10:01 PM PDT [/i]

It is the neighborly thing to do…Work your ass off, and then have the government take it and give it to somebody who does not work their ass off.

Obama’s economic plan amounts to you paying for a gym membership, paying for expensive protein rich food, and lifting your ass off just so he can take your hard earned muscle and give some lazy ass the 1" of arm you just earned.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Obama’s economic plan amounts to you paying for a gym membership, paying for expensive protein rich food, and lifting your ass off just so he can take your hard earned muscle and give some lazy ass the 1" of arm you just earned.[/quote]

So if I vote McCain my arm will grow 1"?

I know it’s selfish but I can’t pass that up.

Not necessarily, but at face value you may get to keep more of the muscle you’ve earned… :wink:

The big smoke and mirrors idea here is that these people on the bottom are actually going to get to keep this wealth. This is false, they are going to spend it on the increased prices of food, meds, gas, etc…

It is going to go right back into the pockets of the rich. Where the taxes come from are the rich AND the middle class, but since the rich get to get it back anyways, it is realistically, stealing from the middle class to give to the rich. The poor stay poor and the middle class get poorer.

V

[quote]AssOnGrass wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Obama’s economic plan amounts to you paying for a gym membership, paying for expensive protein rich food, and lifting your ass off just so he can take your hard earned muscle and give some lazy ass the 1" of arm you just earned.

So if I vote McCain my arm will grow 1"?

I know it’s selfish but I can’t pass that up.[/quote]

You really should get all you can from training and nutrition before your resort to voting your mass on.

53%? WOW, McCain is running a hell of a campaign. too bad he won’t govern worth shit. As has been stated many times, Obama plans a tax cut for about 95% of the population.

Americans “understand”? This presupposes that taxes WILL hurt the economy. The economy is a dynamic system, so with many variables we cannot conclude this necessarily. If the poll was worded this way then it is inherently bias.

This line about most credible economists is the same crap that FOX uses when they say “some people”.

i.e. “some people feel that Obama is a muslim”. That way they have no accountability (or integrity). For every economist you can name that is against Obama’s plan, there is one that is for it, so this is really a moot point.

Hows that trickle down bullshit working out for us? Take a look around. Our fundamentals are not strong. Where is our housing market? Stock market? Banking industry? Plenty of rich people aren’t even paying taxes, so dont just point the finger at the poor bastard that doesnt earn enough to owe the gov’t money.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Obama’s economic plan amounts to you paying for a gym membership, paying for expensive protein rich food, and lifting your ass off just so he can take your hard earned muscle and give some lazy ass the 1" of arm you just earned.[/quote]

Worse than that. It takes all your mass and gives it right back to the politically connected gym-owner class. And worse still it isn’t even functional muscle – it is showy, bodybuilding stage muscle.

[quote]UB07 wrote:

American voters don’t buy Team Obama’s arguments. A recent Gallup poll shows that 53 percent of Americans believe that Mr. Obama would raise their taxes. A recent Zogby poll shows a majority of Americans understand that raising taxes will hurt the economy.

Most credible economists warn that raising taxes during an economic downturn only makes the situation worse. Given our current economic situation, Mr. Obama’s tax plan is the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a fire.

53%? WOW, McCain is running a hell of a campaign. too bad he won’t govern worth shit. As has been stated many times, Obama plans a tax cut for about 95% of the population.

Americans “understand”? This presupposes that taxes WILL hurt the economy. The economy is a dynamic system, so with many variables we cannot conclude this necessarily. If the poll was worded this way then it is inherently bias.

This line about most credible economists is the same crap that FOX uses when they say “some people”.

i.e. “some people feel that Obama is a muslim”. That way they have no accountability (or integrity). For every economist you can name that is against Obama’s plan, there is one that is for it, so this is really a moot point.

Hows that trickle down bullshit working out for us? Take a look around. Our fundamentals are not strong. Where is our housing market? Stock market? Banking industry? Plenty of rich people aren’t even paying taxes, so dont just point the finger at the poor bastard that doesnt earn enough to owe the gov’t money.
[/quote]

You did nothing but restate Obama’s campaign talking points. Please give us some solid info on your position. Especially RE: tax break for 95% of the people and how tax increases to capital gains and corporate entities could conceivably help during an economic downturn.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Not necessarily, but at face value you may get to keep more of the muscle you’ve earned… ;)[/quote]

No but I want handouts damnit! I’ve never earned a damn thing in my life.

[quote]UB07 wrote:

American voters don’t buy Team Obama’s arguments. A recent Gallup poll shows that 53 percent of Americans believe that Mr. Obama would raise their taxes. A recent Zogby poll shows a majority of Americans understand that raising taxes will hurt the economy.

Most credible economists warn that raising taxes during an economic downturn only makes the situation worse. Given our current economic situation, Mr. Obama’s tax plan is the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a fire.

53%? WOW, McCain is running a hell of a campaign. too bad he won’t govern worth shit. As has been stated many times, Obama plans a tax cut for about 95% of the population.

Americans “understand”? This presupposes that taxes WILL hurt the economy. The economy is a dynamic system, so with many variables we cannot conclude this necessarily. If the poll was worded this way then it is inherently bias.

This line about most credible economists is the same crap that FOX uses when they say “some people”.

i.e. “some people feel that Obama is a muslim”. That way they have no accountability (or integrity). For every economist you can name that is against Obama’s plan, there is one that is for it, so this is really a moot point.

Hows that trickle down bullshit working out for us? Take a look around. Our fundamentals are not strong. Where is our housing market? Stock market? Banking industry? Plenty of rich people aren’t even paying taxes, so dont just point the finger at the poor bastard that doesnt earn enough to owe the gov’t money.
[/quote]

If you want to spout dem talking points, that’s fine. Just be honest about it.

If you want to talk about economics, you need bring more to the table than this shit. Maybe go get some education on the subject. Perhaps, and this is going to be a stretch for you, start a business, make some money, pay some taxes, then start bitching. It is obvious you are as clueless as a fucking college kid.

Try not to be so obvious next time.

[quote]pat wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Obama’s economic plan amounts to you paying for a gym membership, paying for expensive protein rich food, and lifting your ass off just so he can take your hard earned muscle and give some lazy ass the 1" of arm you just earned.

So if I vote McCain my arm will grow 1"?

I know it’s selfish but I can’t pass that up.

You really should get all you can from training and nutrition before your resort to voting your mass on.[/quote]

lol good one.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
The big smoke and mirrors idea here is that these people on the bottom are actually going to get to keep this wealth. This is false, they are going to spend it on the increased prices of food, meds, gas, etc…

It is going to go right back into the pockets of the rich. Where the taxes come from are the rich AND the middle class, but since the rich get to get it back anyways, it is realistically, stealing from the middle class to give to the rich. The poor stay poor and the middle class get poorer.

V[/quote]

How is it going back into the pockets of the rich?

Please tell me how it is possible to say that giving away houses is putting money in the pockets of the rich.

If you want to bash the rich - fine. That’s what all the popular kids are doing these days. I would just like to see you back up these claims.

Has common sense been replaced with class envy?

[quote]UB07 wrote:

53%? WOW, McCain is running a hell of a campaign. too bad he won’t govern worth shit. As has been stated many times, Obama plans a tax cut for about 95% of the population.

Americans “understand”? This presupposes that taxes WILL hurt the economy. The economy is a dynamic system, so with many variables we cannot conclude this necessarily. If the poll was worded this way then it is inherently bias.

This line about most credible economists is the same crap that FOX uses when they say “some people”.

i.e. “some people feel that Obama is a muslim”. That way they have no accountability (or integrity). For every economist you can name that is against Obama’s plan, there is one that is for it, so this is really a moot point.

Hows that trickle down bullshit working out for us? Take a look around. Our fundamentals are not strong. Where is our housing market? Stock market? Banking industry? Plenty of rich people aren’t even paying taxes, so dont just point the finger at the poor bastard that doesnt earn enough to owe the gov’t money.
[/quote]

I don’t understand how people can spout that it’s good to cut taxes for 95% of the people yet raise taxes for 5%.

Why not just go all the way and say lower taxes for 100%.

This is why I can’t stand either candidate personally. They are both reluctant to lower taxes significantly for EVERYONE to make a difference because it will raise the deficit. This is because they are too chicken shit to cut any of the real spending issues (social security and medicare being numbers 1 and 2).

McCain is just afraid of losing his health care and income at such an advanced age. (Note this was a joke)

It’s sad to me that so many people have come to expect the government to play Robin Hood on their behalf. I can’t believe there is no major uprising of voters calling for MASSIVE cuts in government spending. I just can’t fathom this attitude of “Oh look, that guy’s got a whole lot more money than me! Hey big brother, why don’t you go steal some of it for me? Use as much force as necessary!” It just goes against everything I know about self-reliance and personal responsibility.

Hell, I feel like a total leech because I accept about $30/month in WIC while trying to support a family of 4 on about $30k/year budget. Obama’s plan is pretty monstrous to me.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
The big smoke and mirrors idea here is that these people on the bottom are actually going to get to keep this wealth. This is false, they are going to spend it on the increased prices of food, meds, gas, etc…

It is going to go right back into the pockets of the rich. Where the taxes come from are the rich AND the middle class, but since the rich get to get it back anyways, it is realistically, stealing from the middle class to give to the rich. The poor stay poor and the middle class get poorer.

V

How is it going back into the pockets of the rich?

Please tell me how it is possible to say that giving away houses is putting money in the pockets of the rich.

If you want to bash the rich - fine. That’s what all the popular kids are doing these days. I would just like to see you back up these claims.

Has common sense been replaced with class envy? [/quote]

RJ it’s the equivalent of saying every big dude is on the 'roids or is big because of his genetics. These 130 pound dudes are just too pussy to admit they didn’t have what it took to be in the elite.

People need to realize that the non-rich in this country enjoy a quality of life almost as good as the rich (unless you royally fuck up). What’s really the difference between the rich and the non-rich in this country? It’s a brand new Honda Civic vs. a brand new BMW 7-series.

*Disclaimer: I have a new civic and am far from rich.

[quote]MrRezister wrote:
Hell, I feel like a total leech because I accept about $30/month in WIC while trying to support a family of 4 on about $30k/year budget. Obama’s plan is pretty monstrous to me.[/quote]

But you are working and paying into the system so that $30 should be yours.

Now if you had less taxes taken out you would not need that $30 and would have some to spare.

People need to wake up and realize they only get pennies back on every dollar taxed.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
The big smoke and mirrors idea here is that these people on the bottom are actually going to get to keep this wealth. This is false, they are going to spend it on the increased prices of food, meds, gas, etc…

It is going to go right back into the pockets of the rich. Where the taxes come from are the rich AND the middle class, but since the rich get to get it back anyways, it is realistically, stealing from the middle class to give to the rich. The poor stay poor and the middle class get poorer.

V

How is it going back into the pockets of the rich?

Please tell me how it is possible to say that giving away houses is putting money in the pockets of the rich.

If you want to bash the rich - fine. That’s what all the popular kids are doing these days. I would just like to see you back up these claims.

Has common sense been replaced with class envy? [/quote]

I don’t see how my concept was hard to understand. The “market” drives prices up for whatever reasons. The current one is the fed causing inflation, and devaluing the dollar. So the heads of major corporations, have to increase thier prices to continue to make the same amount of wealth (i.e. not money, but actual buying power) they had previously. If the government taxes another say for round figures, 1000 from every rich person, and then another 500 from every middle class person. They ten give all the poor people 500 dollars in direct money reimbursements, and they spread the 1000 up amongst the various plans, healthcare for instance.

Now these poor slobs who just got this wonderful free money have been feeling the crunch for a long time now. so they go out and spend it. They buy some nice meals or something, maybe a luxury item there have not been able to before, maybe they spend in on more beer and cigarettes. Either way, they spend it in relatively short notice, because they don’t make enough money to save money. Well they might make just enough to save, but not if they want to live any semblance of the American dream, or rather the new one. The one they see every day on TV, where material posesions somehow make people happy.

Anyways, weather the money they just spent goes straight to the pockets of the CEO and Board of walmart, or it takes 10 transactions for it to get to thier pockets, it has no other place to go. Unless people hold and save the money, it will find it’s way to the wealthiest people, where they can save it and invest it and make it “work” for them. The people who control the money, control the markets, and therefore control where the money goes. By nature it is going to collect where it is not needed. The rich don’t need 10 billion dollars. They may use it on occasion, buying thier 5th mansion, hiring some goons to do thier daily living tasks, like cooking and cleaning. But the vast majority of that money or wealth, is isolated and untouchable, you can’t go get it.

V

Hey if they want to make it patriotic for well to do people to pay taxes then they need to make it patriotic for the poor and ignorant to fight our wars. I don’t want to hear one more person bitch about the poor always fighting the rich people wars.

I still think the two most fair ways for taxes are A. Flat Taxes or B. Every dollar in taxes you pay you get one vote. I guess I’d be ok with military service people only get to vote…kind of like Starship Troopers. Because, unless you serve, the only way you do anything for your country is pay taxes.

My girlfriend’s mom is all gun-ho for Obama because she sees a payout for her long shitty lazy life and “The only reason Obama won’t become president is because he is black”. Can’t even try to argue with these nuts. That being said McCain is bad for the economy and Obama is devastating. I just don’t understand how people can think more government control is the answer when they can’t even balance their own checkbooks.