Obama Wins!

[The_Mage]

Mufasa had the best comment so far.

Too many people are under the impression that it is the government’s job to fix our lives.

Actually it is our job to fix our lives. We have to be responsible for our own lives.

Again I fall onto the fat analogy. How many people do you know that actually blame others, or genetics, for them being fat. (It ain’t my fault, McDonald’s did it.)

Then you listen to the people having conversations where they put down the “skinny” or fit people. You can hear the envy in their voices.

But we know that it is their choice to be fat. Every time they put the wrong thing into their mouth, every time they decide to watch t.v. instead of exercise. Every time they “ride” the escalator instead of walk up the stairs. They are choosing to be fat.

Sometimes the first step in change is getting people to admit they are responsible for what happens to them.

Or we could simply give it up to the government. They could take all the food, and properly portion it out for everyone. It’s not only fair, it will keep us healthy. Everyone is allotted 2,000 calories a day, based on the food pyramid.

Then will come the required exercise 5 days a week. Aerobics 3 days a week, and yoga 2 times a week. If you want, you can use the 5 lb weights. (More then that is too dangerous, and therefore banned.)

And those of you with too much muscle, don’t worry about it. You already have too much muscle, and therefore can spare to give up some of that muscle. Besides it is not fair to those that do not have that much muscle.

(You know, this wasn’t the direction I was headed when I started this post.)

If we are putting down Obama’s ideas and plans, it does not mean we support McCain’s. It only means we think Obama’s are worse.

Also we need to realize that this Congress is going to be very liberal. There is even the possibility of getting to a filibuster proof majority. Given that, and an Obama presidency, his ideas are going to get implemented.

McCain can only implement the ideas where he agrees with the libs. (Too much in my opinion actually.)

But a McCain presidency will slow down what Congress will do.

Either way it looks like the liberals are going to win. Either a little with McCain, or a lot with Obama.

Right now I am beginning to think this country might need an Obama presidency. (Yes I said that.)

Why? Because so many ignorant people need that kick in the ass. When people see what actually happens with a government like that, true conservatism will come back with a passion.

My only worry is that people will not learn, and as usual, when an Obama plan causes problems, they will be able to place blame on Bush.

[PublickStews]

Is there something about lifting weights that attracts people with stupid political beliefs? I guess I’m an outsider here. Thank God Reaganism will be buried once and for all tomorrow and all your 1980 talking points will go the way of the Buffalo. It’s not 1980 anymore. No one is afraid of the socialist bogeyman in 2008. Have fun watching your party dwindle down to a bunch of Christian wackos who believe dinosaurs and humans lived together.

[vroom]

[quote]orion wrote:
You know, in the good old days, most workers were in so called “friendly societies” where they took care of their own so that noone lost their home and starved when a family member got sick.

Evil capitalist even contributed!

That was highly efficient and voluntary and is one of the many examples how government action destroys private initiative and replaces it with BS.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/social_justice/sj0022.html

An article on private charity in Victorian England, let go of the idea that people would starve without the government, it is untenable.
[/quote]

Victorian England? Really? That’s the society we should be aspiring to?

[vroom]

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Mufasa had the best comment so far.

Too many people are under the impression that it is the government’s job to fix our lives.

Actually it is our job to fix our lives. We have to be responsible for our own lives.
[/quote]

While we do have to be responsible to do the best we can for ourselves, I’d like to know how that jibes with industrial chemicals and workplace dangers that are sometimes irresponsibly put in the path of peoples lives – often illegally.

Or, as happens from time to time, a parent is struck by a hit and run driver. I know, stupid people, don’t stand in front of moving vehicles, right?

If we can stop assuming that everyone who has something negative happen to them is actively at fault for it, we can at least have a reasonable discussion about whether society should have any role in attempting to keep potential workers actively involved in the economy.

While there are far too many fuckups in the world, it’s far too easy to assume anyone not as successful as ourselves is a fuckup. It’s in our best interest, financially, in terms of a strong economy, and therefor a stronger nation, to keep people healthy, productive and contributing to society.

[AssOnGrass]

[quote]vroom wrote:
The Mage wrote:
Mufasa had the best comment so far.

Too many people are under the impression that it is the government’s job to fix our lives.

Actually it is our job to fix our lives. We have to be responsible for our own lives.

While we do have to be responsible to do the best we can for ourselves, I’d like to know how that jibes with industrial chemicals and workplace dangers that are sometimes irresponsibly put in the path of peoples lives – often illegally.

Or, as happens from time to time, a parent is struck by a hit and run driver. I know, stupid people, don’t stand in front of moving vehicles, right?

If we can stop assuming that everyone who has something negative happen to them is actively at fault for it, we can at least have a reasonable discussion about whether society should have any role in attempting to keep potential workers actively involved in the economy.

While there are far too many fuckups in the world, it’s far too easy to assume anyone not as successful as ourselves is a fuckup. It’s in our best interest, financially, in terms of a strong economy, and therefor a stronger nation, to keep people healthy, productive and contributing to society.
[/quote]

To be healthy, productive, and contributing to society you need a job, to eat healthy, and not smoke, drink, or do drugs excessively. Government has certainly done a piss poor example of fixing these people’s problems.

Once again if you work and make good decisions in this country you WILL have a roof over your head, food on the table, and possible cable TV. It’s not that bad.

[vroom]

[quote]AssOnGrass wrote:
Once again if you work and make good decisions in this country you WILL have a roof over your head, food on the table, and possible cable TV. It’s not that bad.[/quote]

So, if you are 15, made the poor decision of being born in a bad neighborhood, and finally realize the mistakes you’ve been making as you were a child (perhaps due to missing or shitty parenting), how do we get you back on track so you can pay a decent share of taxes for the majority of your life?

The alternative is to have this person suck back YOUR taxes for the majority of their life as they rot in prison.

[AssOnGrass]

[quote]vroom wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
Once again if you work and make good decisions in this country you WILL have a roof over your head, food on the table, and possible cable TV. It’s not that bad.

So, if you are 15, made the poor decision of being born in a bad neighborhood, and finally realize the mistakes you’ve been making as you were a child (perhaps due to missing or shitty parenting), how do we get you back on track so you can pay a decent share of taxes for the majority of your life?

The alternative is to have this person suck back YOUR taxes for the majority of their life as they rot in prison.
[/quote]

Where is this person’s and parent’s accountability? Don’t try to guilt and pin this on me.

Government has done such a fantastic job at stopping this thus far so let’s just start giving out even more money.

[orion]

[quote]vroom wrote:
orion wrote:
You know, in the good old days, most workers were in so called “friendly societies” where they took care of their own so that noone lost their home and starved when a family member got sick.

Evil capitalist even contributed!

That was highly efficient and voluntary and is one of the many examples how government action destroys private initiative and replaces it with BS.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/social_justice/sj0022.html

An article on private charity in Victorian England, let go of the idea that people would starve without the government, it is untenable.

Victorian England? Really? That’s the society we should be aspiring to?[/quote]

In some ways yes.

Is that all you have?

[orion]

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
vroom wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
Once again if you work and make good decisions in this country you WILL have a roof over your head, food on the table, and possible cable TV. It’s not that bad.

So, if you are 15, made the poor decision of being born in a bad neighborhood, and finally realize the mistakes you’ve been making as you were a child (perhaps due to missing or shitty parenting), how do we get you back on track so you can pay a decent share of taxes for the majority of your life?

And your answer is to take more money away from a guy who made it out of that situation? First of all how is that fair? Secondly, how does throwing money at a problem every fix it?

[/quote]

And third, how is taking money away from the guy who actually knows how to escape poverty and might teach others just by example alone, if not by giving back to the community in an intelligent any help?

[cremaster]

[quote]SinisterMinister wrote:
vroom wrote:
Look, I know how it works.

Some folks, and I’m not trying to convince you of it, actually think that leaving families under the constant threat of financial ruin due to circumstances that are often beyond their control (even if they do try to be healthy) is not acceptable in todays day and age.

You know, some children have their loser parents die off early and their lives suck. I realize it’s not our responsibility to do anything for them as their parents should have planned better, but hey, lots of people have bleeding hearts.

I’d say put a special consumption tax on really unhealthy products/habits, but that is probably going to raise another series of bugaboos for people to complain about.

I don’t think you do know how it works.

My point isn’t that those truly in need should be S.O.L. – it’s that ‘greedy capitalists’ do it better than inefficient governments ever will. Why? Because I’m not going to write a check for $x,xxx and forget about it. It’s my hard-earned money, and I’m going to make DAMN SURE it’s reaching its intended recipient as efficiently as possible. And while you’ll never come across someone looking to INCREASE their income tax because it will benefit their neighbors, you will find thousands upon thousands of Americans who voluntarily send their money to organizations such as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation – because those greedy capitalists do it better.

http://www.businessweek.com/pdfs/2004/0448_philan.pdf

Philanthrocapitalism

[/quote]

A VERY old statistic I remember (pre-internet) was that the Department of Welfare (now the Department of Social Services) disbursed 28% of its budget, with the other 72% being spent on administrative costs. (Real efficient!)

Then, factor in that it costs a business $2.90 to pay $1 in taxes (another OLD number).

So, Bill Gates has to give the government $2.90 so that $0.28 ends up in the hands of a poor person. No wonder he started his own charity!

[The_Mage]

[quote]vroom wrote:

While we do have to be responsible to do the best we can for ourselves, I’d like to know how that jibes with industrial chemicals and workplace dangers that are sometimes irresponsibly put in the path of peoples lives – often illegally.[/quote]

Uh what? Do we really need to take comments to extremes? If a person, or business harms another, of course there should be recourse, and legal repercussions. (As long as they are real problems and not that Erin Brockovich type con job.)

Or, as happens from time to time, a parent is struck by a hit and run driver. I know, stupid people, don’t stand in front of moving vehicles, right?[/quote]

And again, why twist my comments?[quote]

If we can stop assuming that everyone who has something negative happen to them is actively at fault for it, we can at least have a reasonable discussion about whether society should have any role in attempting to keep potential workers actively involved in the economy.[/quote]

Again, who is saying they are at fault? Who is assuming that? This isn’t about fault, this is about responsibility. That is why I used the word responsibility, not blame or fault.

With all of my wife’s medical problems, who should I be blaming? Nobody. Now who is responsible for her care? My wife and I.

I in no way want the government coming in and fucking up the medical system right now. And I also do not want anyone taking money from others to pay for our medical bills. Our insurance works fine as is.[quote]

While there are far too many fuckups in the world, it’s far too easy to assume anyone not as successful as ourselves is a fuckup. It’s in our best interest, financially, in terms of a strong economy, and therefor a stronger nation, to keep people healthy, productive and contributing to society.
[/quote]

As far as fuck ups go, I have to admit that I have fucked up. In fact our medical bills would not have been as much of a strain over the years had I not fucked up before getting those bills.

We got help from my parents here and there, but at one point I realized that was part of the problem. As long as others were dealing with my problems, it meant that I wasn’t. So that was the point I stopped getting help and started dealing with the problems head on.

That was when things started to change for the better, the day I started taking responsibility instead of passing it off to somebody else.

[cremaster]

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
orion wrote:
100meters wrote:
SinisterMinister wrote:
vroom wrote:
Look, I know how it works.

Some folks, and I’m not trying to convince you of it, actually think that leaving families under the constant threat of financial ruin due to circumstances that are often beyond their control (even if they do try to be healthy) is not acceptable in todays day and age.

You know, some children have their loser parents die off early and their lives suck. I realize it’s not our responsibility to do anything for them as their parents should have planned better, but hey, lots of people have bleeding hearts.

I’d say put a special consumption tax on really unhealthy products/habits, but that is probably going to raise another series of bugaboos for people to complain about.

I don’t think you do know how it works.

My point isn’t that those truly in need should be S.O.L. – it’s that ‘greedy capitalists’ do it better than inefficient governments ever will. Why? Because I’m not going to write a check for $x,xxx and forget about it. It’s my hard-earned money, and I’m going to make DAMN SURE it’s reaching its intended recipient as efficiently as possible. And while you’ll never come across someone looking to INCREASE their income tax because it will benefit their neighbors, you will find thousands upon thousands of Americans who voluntarily send their money to organizations such as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation – because those greedy capitalists do it better.

Uh, no.
Govt. run healthcare is vastly more efficient than the “greedy capitalist” options. Mostly because of the “greedy capitalist” part, which involves a lot of “administration costs” that get eaten by folks like me.

In short I get crappy expensive care for myself AND I still have to help pay for the lazy, unhealthy, uncovered folks.

First of all I live in a country with socialized healthcare and second, I live in a country with socialized health care.

Nice try though.

And you are wrong, because the real cost of socialized health care lie in the lack of competition, lack of innovation, political intervention, bureaucracy, and so further and so on…

The actual administrative overhead is pretty small though.

Like the brain of a dinosaur.

uhhh nice try you goon. anyone with the slightest clue knows that us health care is being tanked by administrative costs. public health 101 buddy.
[/quote]

And government will lower those costs?

even back in the early 90s our hospitals were reaching 25% administrative costs. And now were up to 31%, in California its reaching 45%. And no its not the lack of competition or any made up answers you can think of. It’s tied into the huge amount of paper shuffling, oversight, advertising, and underwriting.

(so actually no, competition, which is high, is actually doing nothing to reduce costs, HMO/managed care down the drain…)

More than DOUBLE that of Canada.

Reason why?

Because Canadian hospitals only deal with 1 insurance provider, instead of 150 like the US, the provincial government. GASP!!! Which means Canada’s system isn’t even socialized!!! Hospital workers are not government workers, they are employed under private practice.

And with NO competition, there is NO accountability.

and put together the 1000+ dollars we spend per capita on each person (750+ more than Canada) and we get savings enough to cover the 41 million Americans with no care, and at no additional cost to people with care…

Then please tell me why I can’t find a family doctor. My doctor died about 4 years ago, and there are I can’t find a GP in a city of over 1 million people. So, sure, I’m ‘covered’ for emergencies (5+ hour wait) but no check-ups or ANY preventative tests. You know, things that save money in the long run

AND an AMA(who shot down Trumans attempt at socialized care) study showed that Canada’s private health care organizations are spending more on overhead than we are lol.

But, you just said that the savings from NO competition could fund coverage for the 41 million uninsured. I’m confused

were the last rich industrialized nation to have private care as a main system, we can easily switch to nationalized care and do even better than the euros and canadians.

And, you have the best health care in the world.

To give you 1 example, the GOAL of the Ontario health care system (GOAL means they haven’t reached this measurable yet) is to have EMERGENCY surgeries done within 24 hours. WOW, aim high!

[NiallC]

well being irish i cant vote.
go obama.
i dont get how every republican i talk to is so closed minded,ignorant and sometimes damn stupid about the world we live in.
for this reason, and this reason alone i would vote obama if i lived there.
and if i didnt vote obama i d vote greens.
then independants.

[CappedAndPlanIt]

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’m pretty sure the US got what it deserved over the last eight years… at least if we follow your analogy.

Hopefully, if Obama wins, he won’t be in favor of entitlement or massive government expansion. And no, in comparison, increasing taxes or having a progressive tax system is not a big problem.

I swear, many of you nitwits have no understanding what socialism even is.

Bondslave wrote:
I wish I could live in fantasy land like liberals. That would be awesome!

If obama does get elected all you fools that voted for him will get exactly what you deserve. Unfortunately, you are taking me down with you…

[/quote]

I know what socialism is, I read Atlas Shrugged! Socialism means if I’m a good worker I’ll need to work extra hours and my pay will go directly to someone else who “needs” it more (based on what an old woman decides our needs are),

And eventually the government will pass a bill saying that I have to spend the exact same amount of money each year (down to the penny), even though all my hard earned money is now going to someone who isnt working!

[AssOnGrass]

[quote]NiallC wrote:
well being irish i cant vote.
go obama.
i dont get how every republican i talk to is so closed minded,ignorant and sometimes damn stupid about the world we live in.
for this reason, and this reason alone i would vote obama if i lived there.
and if i didnt vote obama i d vote greens.
then independants.[/quote]

I don’t get how Europeans think they know US politics and issues better than the American’s that live there.

[vroom]

LOL, guys, relax.

I’m talking about the economics of the situation and what would be better for your country… in terms of total costs.

X years in prison : $N00,000 (gov’t spend)

X years paying tax: $N00,000 (gov’t revenue)

The problem is, none of you are going to complain if your taxes are used for police, prison or so on… even if it costs you way more than an alternative.

If you can’t see past your ideology far enough to consider the issues, then so be it. It’s not like all your kvetching has been doing anything to alter the course the country is on.

Anyway, you have may have seen it before, but this is funny…

Diebold Accidentally Leaks Results Of 08 Election

[orion]

[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL, guys, relax.

I’m talking about the economics of the situation and what would be better for your country… in terms of total costs.

X years in prison : $N00,000 (gov’t spend)

X years paying tax: $N00,000 (gov’t revenue)

The problem is, none of you are going to complain if your taxes are used for police, prison or so on… even if it costs you way more than an alternative.

If you can’t see past your ideology far enough to consider the issues, then so be it. It’s not like all your kvetching has been doing anything to alter the course the country is on.

Anyway, you have may have seen it before, but this is funny…

Diebold Accidentally Leaks Results Of 08 Election

[/quote]

Do you want to learn about the crime rate in Victorian England next?

You know, the society you think should not be a model for ours?

[rainjack]

[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL, guys, relax.

I’m talking about the economics of the situation and what would be better for your country… in terms of total costs.[/quote]

No you are not talking about economics. You are talking about the level of government involvement.

The problem is, none of you are going to complain if your taxes are used for police, prison or so on… even if it costs you way more than an alternative.

Who is this “you” you keep creating to argue against? Name names or shut the fuck up. I was against more cops. I was against more prisons.

I am 100% in favor of killing the really bad guys, and vastly reducing the level of government intrusion into the private sector.

[quote]If you can’t see past your ideology far enough to consider the issues, then so be it. It’s not like all your kvetching has been doing anything to alter the course the country is on.
[/quote]

You are the one who can’t see past his ideology. You want a bigger, nicer, more intrusive government - especially if it takes money from those who have worked for it to give to those who haven’t.

Go create strawmen somewhere else. You still don’t have a fucking clue.

And which country is “this country” you refer to?

[on_edge]

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

Justice is no longer blind in america, if a man tries to rob your house and you shoot him and he is black you get in troulbe because he is black.

If you interview for an equal opportunity employer and are a white male chances are you can lose the job to a less qualified minority applicant because of special interest laws put in place.

And as far as his policies, the only problem there is they do not correlate at all with his senate votes. and instead of saying he has changed views over the years, he just started voting present on controversial issues and lying about previous votes, knowing most americans didn’t care enough to actually look into his past votes and what he has really done.

here is a snip of what he has done for chicago, and what we have to fear.

Perhaps the U.S. should pull out of Chicago?

Body count:
In the last six months:
292 killed (murdered) in Chicago;
221 killed in Iraq.

Chicago… Who Runs it:
Senators: Barack Obama & Dick Durbin
Rep: Jesse Jackson Jr.,
Illinois Gov: Rod Blogojevich,
Illinois House leader: Mike Madigan,
Illinois Atty. Gen.: Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike),
Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley (son of Mayor Richard J. Daley)

…our leadership in Illinois …all Democrats.

Thank you for the combat zone in Chicago.
Of course, they’re all blaming each other!
Can’t blame Republicans; there aren’t any!

State pension fund $44 Billion in debt, worst in country. Cook County (Chicago) sales tax 10.25% highest in country. (Look 'em up if you want).

Chicago school system rated one of the worst in the country.
This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois. And he’s gonna ‘fix’ Washington politics for us!

from a repuclican site, but facts you can check.

So you are right it isn’t what he says that we should fear, it is what he has done.

my belief:
A flat income tax 10% on all income, no deductions, eliminate some of the confusion.

Close the borders, and start a mass exportation of those here illegally.

Change immigration laws and citizenship laws to be more clear and leave less loopholes.

Lower business tax on campanies in the US.

Raise importation tax, raise taxes on businesses that were in the US and have moved overseas.

Give 1 yr income equivalent tax credits for each new job created in the US for a company with a 5 yr contingency, that job must exist for 5 yrs.

Let the failing businesses fail, natural selection there is a reason you have failed.

enforce regulations, prosecute violators.

Remove special interest from Law, it has no business there.

Just some of what we should do.
[/quote]

Dad?