Obama: Sanction Israel Not Iran

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Screwing over Israel…

Obama-land. Welcome to it.[/quote]

Speculative diplomatic action by the international community in response to Netanyahu’s pre-election declaration that he would never allow the creation of a Palestinian state translates to the Obama administration screwing over Israel? You’re a moral relativist when it comes to Israel. Terrorism is bat-shit crazy and dangerous except when Menchim Begin’s Irgun used it in pursuit of the creation of the State of Israel, got it. While the US and Israel are strategic allies of enormous importance, the interests of the US and the interests of Israel do not perfectly align. Israeli concerns certainly take a back seat to American ones. I’ll sleep fine at night if my nation “screws over” Israel in pursuit of the national interest.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Rumor is that the French leadership - importantly, members of the Socialist Party and in charge of a country that is a permanent member of the UNSC - has a low opinion of Obama-Kerry, thinking them naive and unskilled at diplomacy.

Say that out loud - French left-of-center diplomats who have no inherent love for Israel think Obama-Kerry wimpy and too willing to concede on Iran. Just wow.
[/quote]

Not surprising at all. In fact, I don’t think Obama has ANY negotiations and diplomacy skill. He’s a petulant and petty politician, as well as an egotist far beyond even most already ego driven politicians.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Rumor is that the French leadership - importantly, members of the Socialist Party and in charge of a country that is a permanent member of the UNSC - has a low opinion of Obama-Kerry, thinking them naive and unskilled at diplomacy.

Say that out loud - French left-of-center diplomats who have no inherent love for Israel think Obama-Kerry wimpy and too willing to concede on Iran. Just wow.

I said it before - this is simply about Obama doing something for his legacy. He isn’t interested in a real deal. He merely wants to claim a quick “peace achievement” - however fleeting - and punt this down the road to the next several presidents and Congresses.
[/quote]

Speculative rumors from the diplomatic corps of an erstwhile great power and gut feelings are now admissible as evidence in this discussion? The technical details of a Comprehensive Joint Plan of Action are “rumored” to effectively neuter Iran’s centrifuges and uranium mills, place limits on Iran’s ballistic missile programs, and implement robust monitoring and enforcement mechanisms that would make an Iranian breakout or sneak out virtually unmistakable well in advance of actualized nuclear capability. Diplomacy is simply the best case scenario for the Iran issue. Of it fails, I’m all for the reestablishment and augmentation of sanctions coupled with the targeting of the military dimensions of Iran’s nuclear program.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
I criticized Netanyahu’s failure to provide a viable alternative to any agreement the P5+1 talks may produce. A red herring is a logical fallacy that consists in diverting attention from the real issue by focusing instead on an issue having only a surface relevance to the first. Given Congress’s erroneous “letter” to the Iranian leadership regarding a potential deal, how does the discussion of the legal character of a potential Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action constitute a red herring?

You’re incorrect on more than one count, as I’ve demonstrated via stare decisis. You, like the Congressmen who wrote the letter to Iran, have an erroneous understanding of treaty law and the US Constitution. The Constitution does not define the term treaty, but but has two relevant provisions dealing with treaty practice. Under Article II, Ã???Ã??Ã?§ 2.2, the president has the power with “the advice and consent” of two-thirds of the Senate to make treaties. The president ratifies and proclaims treaties, not the Senate. Article VI, Ã???Ã??Ã?§ 2, declares that “all Treaties made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby.” In addition to “treaties”, the president has the power to make other international agreements (1) on the basis of congressional authorization, (2) on the basis of his own foreign relations power, or (3) on the basis of authority contained in an earlier treaty made pursuant to Article II. These agreements are also considered to be federal law, and enjoy legal parity with a “treaty” that has been ratified.

The fact that you write “international law” is indicative that the discipline is terra incognito for you. I’m not going to elaborate on why international law is indeed law, as it goes beyond the scope of this discussion. There are numerous undergraduate texts that do an immeasurably better job of establishing the validity of the field than I ever could. So far, you haven’t cited even one source of international law.

You’ve conflated UN general assembly resolutions with UNSC resolutions. The former are indeed nothing more than recommendations, while the latter are Diktate that absolutely constitute international agreements that impose international obligations. As I’ve demonstrated, It does not matter if domestic legislation abrogates a state from the domestic legal obligations of a “treaty” that has been ratified or a UNSCR that is of equal legal standing; abrogation or countervailing domestic legislation does not relieve a state of its original international obligations. That isn’t an abstract “academic nicety” - which is ironic given you haven’t bothered to cite any real world examples while I have done so numerous times - but a position based upon stare decisis. Pacta sunt servanda is an example of jus cogens - a peremptory norm - that states do not have a choice in being subject to or not. Consent is not required. Customary law has been established by precedent to be undeniably internationally binding, jus cogens even more so.

Such an international agreement, if it required unilateral U.S. sanction relief, would be termed non-self executing, as it would require additional domestic legislation for implementation to take place. If congress is recalcitrant in the face of international obligations, the US will be in material breach of its international obligations, which would be ironic given Iranian compliance under the Geneva interim agreement. US sanctions UNSR the UNSC sanction regime have already been reduced incrementally in accordance with the agreement, which again, is as legally binding as a ratified “treaty”.
[/quote]

  1. The reason your long-winded discourse on treaties was a red herring is because treaties - which we don’t have here - are legally (and practically) different from other forms of international agreements. There is no question they are binding, which makes sense, since they are constitutionally recognized and have run the legislative gamut to become law.

Other agreements - like the one at issue currently - is not a treaty, and so it doesn’t behave like one under the law, and it doesn’t have the undisputed binding force of one. So, since it ain’t a treaty, and the rules of a treaty aren’t helpful in understanding whether the proposed executive agreement is binding.

  1. I use intentional scare quotes around “international law” not because of my lack of familiarity with the topic, but rather to highlight the fact that in many ways isn’t law at all. For all the hopes and dreams of the academic international law crowd, when big, powerful countries rumble on these issues, international “law” is only persuasive, and without any real enforcement mechanism.

  2. Other, non-treaty international agreements may be binding or not. Point is, they are not automatically so. And there is a serious question under U.S. law whether a president can negotiate reduction of Congressional sanctions in the face of existing Congressional sanctions. Such a scenario is subject to a Youngstown Sheet (Steel Seizure case) analysis to determine whether the president had the power to undertake such negotiations in the first place. And like Youngstown Sheet, the president simply invoking his Article 2 authority isn’t enough to carry the day - he still cannot usurp Congress’s authority to set policy through enactment of statutes. In other words, when Congress has spoken on an issue that involves international relations, the president likely doesn’t have the unilateral power to conduct an end-around Congress through executive agreements. And SCOTUS won’t be bashful about reaffirming that principle…see Medellin v. Texas, as I noted above.

If such a thing happens, and someone decries the decision as violating “international law”, it won’t matter, just as it didn’t matter in Medellin.

  1. As a practical matter, and as a sovereign one, the international community can’t make Congress pass a bill, and the UNSC wouldn’t dream of attempting to appear to trying to do so. The idea that, on this issue, there will be resolutions passed and an attempt to say “the international community has created an obligation, and domestic legislature, you must pass a bill ratifying this policy or you will be in material breach of this obligation” is laughable, for many reasons, not the least of which is that which one of the voting countries wants to establish that kind of “precedent” that will apply to their own legislatures or parliaments?

The UNSC is not going to issue such a command through a resolution. Not if it cherishes its relevance.

  1. FWIW, Article 46 allows countries to invoke internal law to invalidate consent even to something aa indisputably binding as a treaty it if violates a provision of the internal law regarding competence to conclude treaties. It certainly follows that a major arms agreement - historically almost always a treaty ratified by the Senate - that directly involves the reduction of sanctions levied by statute enacted by Congress certainly allows invocation of this exception. This arms deal implicates traditional Senate prerogatives as well as basic Congressional authority to set policy. Internal law? Fundamentally important to how the United States concludes treaties? Yep.

And again, that is for treaties. For agreements made of lesser stuff, the exception makes even more sense.

As such, the idea that the UNSC is going to try to strongarm Congress - knowing full well about how such agreements are handled in domestic politics - is silly.

Obama is keen on end-arounds, but no resolution attempt in that will make it past the first draft, I wouldn’t think.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

You’ve conflated UN general assembly resolutions with UNSC resolutions. The former are indeed nothing more than recommendations, while the latter are Diktate that absolutely constitute international agreements that impose international obligations.
[/quote]

The UNSC can pass resolutions under three separate chapters of its Charter. Only one of those is considered binding (Chapter 7 I think). Further, many of them have been ignored over the past 5 decades, and without military reprisals in reply to ignoring the “binding resolutions”.

You’re absolutely crazy if you think the US is going to be bound by a P5+1 agreement that the Congress doesn’t like and didn’t want. International relations is anarchy and International Law represents nothing more than a recommended set of “play nice” rules–nations ignore it when they want and when it goes against their interests. Only sometimes do they suffer consequences for doing so.

You’re obviously a smart guy, but it would help a lot if you just shut down the Latin phrases and academic jargon through most of your posts. Obviously that’s what you are used to, but if I talked in my “research chemistry language” nobody would bother to read the wall of text because it required too much translation to put into words people would relate to. That has less to do with inability to follow a field and more to do with inability to convey concepts in simplicity, instead making things needlessly obscure with verbose verbiage.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Rumor is that the French leadership - importantly, members of the Socialist Party and in charge of a country that is a permanent member of the UNSC - has a low opinion of Obama-Kerry, thinking them naive and unskilled at diplomacy.

Say that out loud - French left-of-center diplomats who have no inherent love for Israel think Obama-Kerry wimpy and too willing to concede on Iran. Just wow.
[/quote]

Not surprising at all. In fact, I don’t think Obama has ANY negotiations and diplomacy skill. He’s a petulant and petty politician, as well as an egotist far beyond even most already ego driven politicians.[/quote]

Agreed re: diplomacy. And this isn’t a partisan critique - it doesn’t matter what party he belongs to, he just simply stinks at this aspect of the job. Even Democrats are willing to admit this nowadays.

Ideology can drive it, of course - if you don’t think Iran is all that bad, you naturally won’t be tough in the negotiations. But bigger than that, Obama is just simply not cut out go that task, and never has been.

(But really, really wants to, because of his ego and insecurity. Recall how poorly he performed during Grand Bargain talks with Boehner. Obama was derided by both Democrats and Republicans for fumbling that. But he couldn’t stand the idea of the Gang of [Whatever Number It Was] stealing the headlines with a better deal, especially one that raised more revenue than did Obama and Boehner’s deal. Obama’s last minute addition to his deal that blew it up - the inclusion of lots more revenue after he and Boehner tentatively reached a deal - was driven by the fact the Senate Gang deal had extracted lots more revenue out of its Republicans and made Obama look like he got routed by the House GOP.)

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Rumor is that the French leadership - importantly, members of the Socialist Party and in charge of a country that is a permanent member of the UNSC - has a low opinion of Obama-Kerry, thinking them naive and unskilled at diplomacy.

Say that out loud - French left-of-center diplomats who have no inherent love for Israel think Obama-Kerry wimpy and too willing to concede on Iran. Just wow.
[/quote]

Not surprising at all. In fact, I don’t think Obama has ANY negotiations and diplomacy skill. He’s a petulant and petty politician, as well as an egotist far beyond even most already ego driven politicians.[/quote]

Agreed re: diplomacy. And this isn’t a partisan critique - it doesn’t matter what party he belongs to, he just simply stinks at this aspect of the job. Even Democrats are willing to admit this nowadays.

Ideology can drive it, of course - if you don’t think Iran is all that bad, you naturally won’t be tough in the negotiations. But bigger than that, Obama is just simply not cut out go that task, and never has been.

(But really, really wants to, because of his ego and insecurity. Recall how poorly he performed during Grand Bargain talks with Boehner. Obama was derided by both Democrats and Republicans for fumbling that. But he couldn’t stand the idea of the Gang of [Whatever Number It Was] stealing the headlines with a better deal, especially one that raised more revenue than did Obama and Boehner’s deal. Obama’s last minute addition to his deal that blew it up - the inclusion of lots more revenue after he and Boehner tentatively reached a deal - was driven by the fact the Senate Gang deal had extracted lots more revenue out of its Republicans and made Obama look like he got routed by the House GOP.)[/quote]

No doubt about that at all. It’s very independent of party–although in this case I’m happy to say I’m biased against him because of his politics, but I could at least admit that Clinton was a damned good negotiator, and a VERY astute politician. Other POTUS as well.

If anyone needed any proof of Obama’s inability to negotiate or competently handle diplomatic bargaining, just look at the Cuba announcement. You have a a giant world power, and a small puny broke Caribbean country. Regardless of 60 years of baggage, this SHOULD have been a cakewalk for a president and his administration to handle. All the power is in our economy and our court. And yet…he bungled it completely.

As an aside, I think Romney would have been infinitely better at this for the simple reason that he’s a businessman, and businessmen drive hard deals for their companies. That’s how they make money, and that’s how they ensure their company’s success. This has nothing to do with what I think Romney would have been as POTUS, simply just a statement on bargaining and cajoling. In business you generally don’t view the opposition as ‘all that terrible’ either, but regardless of ideology you’re just working to get the most for your money or investment anyways.

Rep. Engel, Democrat from New York:

Weâ??ve seen a lot of speculative reporting in the press about might or might not be included in a comprehensive nuclear deal with Iran. Today, weâ??re going to send over a letter to the President signed by 360 Members of Congress in both parties, a majority of each party, talking about some of the things that weâ??re concerned with and we would hope that we could get a prompt response from the White House. Itâ??s truly a very bipartisan letter expressing Congressâ??s strong feelings about things that need to be in the agreement.

I want to emphasizeâ??reemphasizeâ??what the Chairman said. There really cannot be any marginalization of Congress. Congress really needs to play a very active and vital role in this whole process, and any attempts to sidestep Congress will be resisted on both sides of the aisle.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/03/20/dem_rep_engel_warns_obama_on_iran_any_attempts_to_sidestep_congress_will_be_resisted_on_both_sides_of_the_aisle.html

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Screwing over Israel…

Obama-land. Welcome to it.[/quote]

Speculative diplomatic action by the international community in response to Netanyahu’s pre-election declaration that he would never allow the creation of a Palestinian state translates to the Obama administration screwing over Israel? You’re a moral relativist when it comes to Israel. Terrorism is bat-shit crazy and dangerous except when Menchim Begin’s Irgun used it in pursuit of the creation of the State of Israel, got it. While the US and Israel are strategic allies of enormous importance, the interests of the US and the interests of Israel do not perfectly align. Israeli concerns certainly take a back seat to American ones. I’ll sleep fine at night if my nation “screws over” Israel in pursuit of the national interest.[/quote]

Even the leftist New York Times is reporting essentially Obama throwing Israel under the bus. The notorious New York Times that white washed the holocaust during the last war:

Seems we can all rest easier now:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/obama-supreme-leader-ayatollah-khamenei-has-issued-fatwa-against

(lol)

Does anyone have any more credible information on whether or not the white house sent advisers and money to help defeat Bibi?

I mean, the “excuse” he used not to see him when he came to speak at Congress was that “we don’t want to influence a foreign election”… So let me get it straight: obama won’t meet with the prime minister cuz it might be seen as “influence”, but he’ll actively send money and advisers over to Israel to undermine and meddle in a foreign election of one or our allies?

I’ve heard whispers of this and a few fringe articles and on one of the radio shows I listen too, they had a guest that cited some pretty impressive evidence of this, but nothing in the MSLM…

Does anyone else have any information or credible sources on this?

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Does anyone have any more credible information on whether or not the white house sent advisers and money to help defeat Bibi?

I mean, the “excuse” he used not to see him when he came to speak at Congress was that “we don’t want to influence a foreign election”… So let me get it straight: obama won’t meet with the prime minister cuz it might be seen as “influence”, but he’ll actively send money and advisers over to Israel to undermine and meddle in a foreign election of one or our allies?

I’ve heard whispers of this and a few fringe articles and on one of the radio shows I listen too, they had a guest that cited some pretty impressive evidence of this, but nothing in the MSLM…

Does anyone else have any information or credible sources on this?[/quote]

I don’t know whether they were “sent” by the White House or not, but I do know democratic campaign strategists were there, including former Obama campaign strategists. Whether they were sent or advised to go by Obama and democratic leadership, I don’t know. No doubt that line of inquiry will be stonewalled for years.

It certainly would be within Obama’s personality to try something like that. He’s exceedingly fond of “end-arounds” when stifled in his goals. More blatantly so than other POTUS I am aware of. It would also be within his character to “learn about all this on the evening news, just like you”. But we can’t know for sure, and so far as I am aware I know of no major outlet and credible source with more details than what we’ve seen so far. I don’t trust the ones running with the story so far.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I do know democratic campaign strategists were there, including former Obama campaign strategists.[/quote]

Very true. The thing the right-wing websites are neglecting to mention is that Republican campaign strategists were there too, including campaign strategists formerly employed by the only 2016 Republican presidential candidate (as of 11:53 EST on 3/23/2015).

I am inclined to think that a group that gets SD funds shouldn’t be meddling in foreign elections, at least not until X amount of time has passed without SD funding. But if no rules were broken, and the group wasn’t getting SD funds after November, and this Netanyahu aid doesn’t come up with any more evidence, then this is a whole lot of nothing. It is, in fact, what political strategists do: make your name working a big campaign, win, and then emerge from under the winner’s wing in order to charge other would-be winners lots of money.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I do know democratic campaign strategists were there, including former Obama campaign strategists.[/quote]

Very true. The thing the right-wing websites are neglecting to mention is that Republican campaign strategists were there too, including campaign strategists formerly employed by the only 2016 Republican presidential candidate (as of 11:53 EST on 3/23/2015).

I am inclined to think that a group that gets SD funds shouldn’t be meddling in foreign elections, at least not until X amount of time has passed without SD funding. But if no rules were broken, and the group wasn’t getting SD funds after November, and this Netanyahu aid doesn’t come up with any more evidence, then this is a whole lot of nothing. It is, in fact, what political strategists do: make your name working a big campaign, win, and then emerge from under the winner’s wing in order to charge other would-be winners lots of money.[/quote]

Right. And it’s also exactly what strategists do in another way: make you believe there’s some grand conspiracy of the other side so that you vote the way they want you to…or, in this case, think mean things about the party they want you to (the democratic party and Obama).

I’m partially in agreement with you, however I think this is more than “nothing”. Might be my bias, I’m not sure yet but it doesn’t pass the gut instinct test and I take my ‘gut check’ test quite seriously.

But as I said, not enough credible sources yet.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

You’re obviously a smart guy, but it would help a lot if you just shut down the Latin phrases and academic jargon through most of your posts. Obviously that’s what you are used to, but if I talked in my “research chemistry language” nobody would bother to read the wall of text because it required too much translation to put into words people would relate to. That has less to do with inability to follow a field and more to do with inability to convey concepts in simplicity, instead making things needlessly obscure with verbose verbiage.
[/quote]

Hey, just admit that it’s terra incognito for you! [/quote]

You mean terra incognita.

Incognitus is inflected to agree with the feminine singular “terra”.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Does anyone have any more credible information on whether or not the white house sent advisers and money to help defeat Bibi?

I mean, the “excuse” he used not to see him when he came to speak at Congress was that “we don’t want to influence a foreign election”… So let me get it straight: obama won’t meet with the prime minister cuz it might be seen as “influence”, but he’ll actively send money and advisers over to Israel to undermine and meddle in a foreign election of one or our allies?

I’ve heard whispers of this and a few fringe articles and on one of the radio shows I listen too, they had a guest that cited some pretty impressive evidence of this, but nothing in the MSLM…

Does anyone else have any information or credible sources on this?[/quote]

My man, you will never find a direct link to Mister Número Uno. That’s not how these things work. It’s enough for me that in the middle of a diplomatic chill caused by Obama, Netanyahu is invited by the speaker of the house, President Obongo is informed and doesn’t respond, the WH leaks a whole lot of vitriol to the media, a phoney crisis is fabricated out of nothing, then Obama’s top campaign manager and a hundred sixty radical left-wing activists who had worked for Obama all go over to the Holy Land with hundreds of thousands of dollars raised by Obama donors to throw the election. I kind of put two and two together. I’m sure our young College upstart Bismarck can probably put two and two together too only I suspect young Bismarck is an appreciatice of the “throw Israel under the bus then Arabs will be nice to us” school of IR realism espoused by self loathing Jew Mearsheimer.

Interestingly, much of the money that funded this Obama subversion dream team came from wealthy, liberal Jewish donors. The fact is, radical internationalist Jews are behind most the efforts to destroy Israel. These loathsome individuals have some kind of delusion that if Israel didn’t exist no one would hate Jews. And that an ethno-nationalist state is a naughty thing. I disagree. Especially in the case of Israel as an Arab majority would lead immediately to the annihilation of the state and more than likely most the populace.

Damn, I said I wouldn’t post in PWI anymore. Oh well, this will be my last then. Frankly, I’m sick of being called a “homophobe” and now the latest is I’m a fucking white supramacist because I linked to a Amren article. So, I don’t think I have anything more to teach or learn here and i think I’ve pretty much run the course. Good talking to you ac. I have a lot of respect for you hearing about your life experiences. All the best mate.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Damn, I said I wouldn’t post in PWI anymore. Oh well, this will be my last then. Frankly, I’m sick of being called a “homophobe” and now the latest is I’m a fucking white supramacist because I linked to a Amren article. So, I don’t think I have anything more to teach or learn here and i think I’ve pretty much run the course. Good talking to you ac. I have a lot of respect for you hearing about your life experiences. All the best mate.[/quote]

Oh, go eat your Jew food, racist!

Just kidding, SM. We’ll miss you. Come back any time.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Does anyone have any more credible information on whether or not the white house sent advisers and money to help defeat Bibi?

I mean, the “excuse” he used not to see him when he came to speak at Congress was that “we don’t want to influence a foreign election”… So let me get it straight: obama won’t meet with the prime minister cuz it might be seen as “influence”, but he’ll actively send money and advisers over to Israel to undermine and meddle in a foreign election of one or our allies?

I’ve heard whispers of this and a few fringe articles and on one of the radio shows I listen too, they had a guest that cited some pretty impressive evidence of this, but nothing in the MSLM…

Does anyone else have any information or credible sources on this?[/quote]

I don’t know whether they were “sent” by the White House or not, but I do know democratic campaign strategists were there, including former Obama campaign strategists. Whether they were sent or advised to go by Obama and democratic leadership, I don’t know. No doubt that line of inquiry will be stonewalled for years.

It certainly would be within Obama’s personality to try something like that. He’s exceedingly fond of “end-arounds” when stifled in his goals. More blatantly so than other POTUS I am aware of. It would also be within his character to “learn about all this on the evening news, just like you”. But we can’t know for sure, and so far as I am aware I know of no major outlet and credible source with more details than what we’ve seen so far. I don’t trust the ones running with the story so far.[/quote]

From some of the comments made by the Justices - more specifically Kennedy- in the upcoming Obamacare ruling, Bam could be in for a rude awakening regarding his end-arounds. Hard to gauge how they will rule, but it seems a gridlocked Congress is not a justifiable reason for an end-around.