T Nation

Obama Border Fence


#1

So far I haven't disagreed with the stuff that Obama has been doing until now..I live near the Arizona border and see the illegals come over in droves..I am inconvenienced every time i drive to Tucson by a border patrol check..

Anyways...I heard recently that Obama has halted the border fence that we have been trying to get built for years....I am so upset about this! I think this is a huge mistake! We either build the fence and slow them down or leave it wide open which we have been doing..We waste so much money supporting these non citizens who drive around without car insurance and sue the crap out of us...

We can either spend millions to build the fence or spend billions supporting them and their children. I have no problem with people coming over legally...

  • Adam

#2

That’s funny, this is one thing I agree with. The fence is a waste of money. You really think they would stop coming over if there was a fence?

I’d spend the money on more guards and more deportation.


#3

I understand, I have been here 26 years. I personally think the cheapest way to handle the problem is fine the empoyres . That fense will be expensive to build and expensive to maintain


#4

A fence. … You think a fucking FENCE is going to stop the destitute Mexican’s from crossing the border? You realize they’re leaving their homes and families behind in most cases right?

Would a fence stop YOU from making it to a better life?

I’m not saying what they do is just or should be legal or any of that, but you have to consider, if people are willing to come be HOMELESS in America rather than be poor in Mexico, they probably aren’t going to be stopped by a fence.


#5

The fence will do nothing. It will be our own Great Wall, and cost us massive amounts of money to staff and maintain.

It will be even more embarrassing once they begin to tunnel under it or find other ways to get by it. I agree that fining the employers is the best course of action.

I have always thought kind of like how Bush thought- legalize them, grant them amnesty, then tax them like everyone else is.


#6

They wouldn’t come if they didn’t find jobs. It’s that simple. There’s already a river, border patrol and immigration laws that make things hell for people who want to come here legally (like me, which is why I dislike illegals so much). None of those things will stop them. As long as they know that they can get jobs here, they’ll find their way in. Also, the whole “presione 2 para espaÃ?±ol” thing only makes them feel home.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I have always thought kind of like how Bush thought- legalize them, grant them amnesty, then tax them like everyone else is. [/quote]

I agree with the tax them like everyone else part, but the legalizing gets tricky. How do you go around that? The total cost for an immigrant visa, done legally, is gonna be anywhere between $2 - 4k. So how would you do it, just make it free for the illegals that are here already? Sounds extremely unfair to me. Or charge them an equivalent amount, in which case most of them wouldn’t have the money and would remain illegal.


#7

It’s got to be a multi faceted approach to fix this nightmare problem. I’m talking about:

~A fence, yes, a big damn fence.

~A fully armed military presence along our southern border to coincide with the fence, and give them the authority to enforce the border with lethal force.

~Amazingly large fines for employers who hire illegal immigrants. We need to take away the jobs.

~NO benefits to the illegals whatsoever. I mean seriously, isn’t this a no brainer?

~Reform the process for workers to come into this country. We need to make it easier to channel this labor force into the country as we obviously need them, however we need to do this on our terms, not theirs.

We need to realize that this is a national security concern above all else. I mean, a nation that can’t enforce it’s own borders isn’t much of a nation I think. I’m all for immigration, just not for supporting illegal immigration. We need a better way to track and account for those who are entering this country. I liked what McCain had to say about this in his campaign, “we need to be a nation with high fences and wide gates”. Well said I think.


#8

All you need is a sign on the Mexico side saying “Cross Here Now” and a couple of sharpshooters on the US side. That would slow them down for a while. The whole issue is so epidemic that something drastic has to be done.

What did we do before we had an inexhaustable supply of Mexicans and central Americans to exploit? Our kids on summer vacation did all the landscaping, seasonal and restaurant work. Go back to basics, get our lazy assed kids off the video games and let them earn some blisters.

BG


#9

They have already had trucks with built on ramps ,on both sides of the border that meet ata designated place and a convoy drives up one side and down the other


#10

A fence would only slow down people who were on foot, however it would seriously inhibit people trying to cross with a vehicle or even a horse. You put the Dam up and then you plug the leaks.

It would actually take less Border Patrol Agents to monitor a fence versus open space…

Also if Obama wants to create jobs isn’t a fence a good idea?

I agree with hammering people who hire illegals with huge fines and even prison…

I don’t think we should give them amnesty…it didn’t work when Clinton tried it.

Also, schools need to require proof of citizenship before a student can enroll. They don’t have to turn these people in, just don’t let them enroll. Why should we pay for illegal citizens educations? The schools don’t complain about illegals because they get funded by head count.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
It’s got to be a multi faceted approach to fix this nightmare problem. I’m talking about:

~A fence, yes, a big damn fence.

~A fully armed military presence along our southern border to coincide with the fence, and give them the authority to enforce the border with lethal force.

~Amazingly large fines for employers who hire illegal immigrants. We need to take away the jobs.

~NO benefits to the illegals whatsoever. I mean seriously, isn’t this a no brainer?

~Reform the process for workers to come into this country. We need to make it easier to channel this labor force into the country as we obviously need them, however we need to do this on our terms, not theirs.

We need to realize that this is a national security concern above all else. I mean, a nation that can’t enforce it’s own borders isn’t much of a nation I think. I’m all for immigration, just not for supporting illegal immigration. We need a better way to track and account for those who are entering this country. I liked what McCain had to say about this in his campaign, “we need to be a nation with high fences and wide gates”. Well said I think.[/quote]


#11

The fence is completed in the areas of population; it is not in desolate areas


#12

[quote]adamhum wrote:
A fence would only slow down people who were on foot, however it would seriously inhibit people trying to cross with a vehicle or even a horse. You put the Dam up and then you plug the leaks.

[/quote]

A dam is an appropriate analogy. It holds back the water for a while, but after time the same flowrate is achieved over or through the dam. A dam, holds back exactly 0% of the flow of a river once steady state is reached.


#13

I can’t beleive all the opposition to a fence. What the fuck are fences for!? Do they work in prisions? I guess they are just their for looks. Unbelievable. Of course they provide a function. Is a fence all we need, no. Is is an integral part of the solution, yes. It doesn’t have to impenatrable to provide value. Much like a security system in your home or car.

It provides three main functions as far as I can tell.

Deterent - Too easy to cross right now. Some may not make the trip at all or as often if it becomes substantially harder.

Buys time - If it takes people longer to cross becuase of a significant obstacle, we have a better chance of getting them.

Acts as funnel - People will naturally pick locations that are easier to cross. We narrow down the locations that are most easily crossed and we can focus other tactics and resourse on these locations.

There is absolutly not reason not to build fense or use any other technologies at our disposal. That is unless you want more net recievers of gov’t programs to pad your vote totals.


#14

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

~NO benefits to the illegals whatsoever. I mean seriously, isn’t this a no brainer?

[/quote]

Unfortunately, It’s a brainer for California. Our Queen Pelosi wants more illegals so she can give them freebies, so she can remain in power indefinately. This is a big part of why we have 12% of the nations population, yet 21% of the countries welfare and healthcare costs.

The more you let flood in, the more will become legal, the more will come to our hospitals with no money or plan, and the more you GIVE them, the more they vote for you.

She has most recently been cheering on the illegals, calling them patriots, and those who want to deport them as un-american.


#15

[quote]adamhum wrote:
Also if Obama wants to create jobs isn’t a fence a good idea?

[/quote]

And we should employ the illegals, pay them, and make sure they erect it from the mexican side and make sure their work camps are on the mexican side so that when it is finished, they will be barred OUT!

We should then have all the new OBAMA Youth brigade boys check it for security, then keep the illegals out.


#16

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

~Reform the process for workers to come into this country. We need to make it easier to channel this labor force into the country as we obviously need them, however we need to do this on our terms, not theirs.
[/quote]

I agree with this. I have heard from several people that becoming a permanent citizen is a long, ardous process.

[quote]
We need to realize that this is a national security concern above all else. I mean, a nation that can’t enforce it’s own borders isn’t much of a nation I think. I’m all for immigration, just not for supporting illegal immigration. We need a better way to track and account for those who are entering this country. I liked what McCain had to say about this in his campaign, “we need to be a nation with high fences and wide gates”. Well said I think.[/quote]

One of the few statements by the old man that I like.


#17

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
All you need is a sign on the Mexico side saying “Cross Here Now” and a couple of sharpshooters on the US side. That would slow them down for a while. The whole issue is so epidemic that something drastic has to be done.

What did we do before we had an inexhaustable supply of Mexicans and central Americans to exploit? Our kids on summer vacation did all the landscaping, seasonal and restaurant work. Go back to basics, get our lazy assed kids off the video games and let them earn some blisters.

BG [/quote]

It won’t happen.

Why the fuck would I hire two college kids who are lazy as shit when I could hire one Mexican, have him work like a bastard, and pay him less than the whiny college kids? Plus, Mexicans, the Portugese, etc. are often very experienced and damn good at what they do.

Doesn’t make business sense.


#18

[quote]dhickey wrote:
I can’t beleive all the opposition to a fence. What the fuck are fences for!? Do they work in prisions? I guess they are just their for looks. Unbelievable. Of course they provide a function. Is a fence all we need, no. Is is an integral part of the solution, yes. It doesn’t have to impenatrable to provide value. Much like a security system in your home or car.

It provides three main functions as far as I can tell.

Deterent - Too easy to cross right now. Some may not make the trip at all or as often if it becomes substantially harder.

Buys time - If it takes people longer to cross becuase of a significant obstacle, we have a better chance of getting them.

Acts as funnel - People will naturally pick locations that are easier to cross. We narrow down the locations that are most easily crossed and we can focus other tactics and resourse on these locations.

There is absolutly not reason not to build fense or use any other technologies at our disposal. That is unless you want more net recievers of gov’t programs to pad your vote totals.[/quote]

They work in prisons because it’s a controlled supervised environment where you can ensure guys don’t have ladders and things.

Crossing a desert, vs. crossing a desert while having to climb a fence. Iâ??m betting the time difference ainâ??t that much.

And look at the cost, so far it has cost 3.9 million dollars PER MILE. Since there are about 670 miles left, that would come to about $2,613,000,000. Although it will probably be a lot more than that since the roughest terrain is still ahead. Plus you have to factor in constant repairs (already becoming a pain in the completed sections).

There are better ways to spend money.


#19

Very Well put…

We need as many deterrents in place as possible. The money we spend will be saved ten fold by the result…

  • Adam

[quote]dhickey wrote:
I can’t beleive all the opposition to a fence. What the fuck are fences for!? Do they work in prisions? I guess they are just their for looks. Unbelievable. Of course they provide a function. Is a fence all we need, no. Is is an integral part of the solution, yes. It doesn’t have to impenatrable to provide value. Much like a security system in your home or car.

It provides three main functions as far as I can tell.

Deterent - Too easy to cross right now. Some may not make the trip at all or as often if it becomes substantially harder.

Buys time - If it takes people longer to cross becuase of a significant obstacle, we have a better chance of getting them.

Acts as funnel - People will naturally pick locations that are easier to cross. We narrow down the locations that are most easily crossed and we can focus other tactics and resourse on these locations.

There is absolutly not reason not to build fense or use any other technologies at our disposal. That is unless you want more net recievers of gov’t programs to pad your vote totals.[/quote]


#20

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
bigflamer wrote:

~NO benefits to the illegals whatsoever. I mean seriously, isn’t this a no brainer?

Unfortunately, It’s a brainer for California. Our Queen Pelosi wants more illegals so she can give them freebies, so she can remain in power indefinately. This is a big part of why we have 12% of the nations population, yet 21% of the countries welfare and healthcare costs.

The more you let flood in, the more will become legal, the more will come to our hospitals with no money or plan, and the more you GIVE them, the more they vote for you.

She has most recently been cheering on the illegals, calling them patriots, and those who want to deport them as un-american. [/quote]

The problem is far deeper than just health care. The truth is most illegals are net beneficiaries of tax payer funded programs. Many claim making them legal and taxing them is the solution. This is not the case. You’ll have to excuse the lack of hard facts, but here is the truth. Most illegals (and legal hispanic immigrants) fall into the lower income brackets. These brackets are net beneficiaries in that they pay far less in taxes than they consume in tax payer funded programs.

Subsidised Healthcare

Use of infrastructure

10k per year per student for education. This is an average. probalby more for those that don’t speak the language.

subsidised tuition for college
etc.

To think that a group of people that leave everything to cross into another country illegally would ever become net payers or even pay for the service they consume is ridiculous.

To think that we can actually absorb more net beneficiaries is also ridiculous. The reality, whether you like it or not, is that we must be selective in allowing immigrants into the country. It’s not a moral or political arguement. It’s a mathmatical one. We need to ensure that immigration provides at least a break even on tax payer funded benefits.

I hadn’t heard about Obama nixing the fense. I hope there is more to this story. If not this is another huge assualt on the solvency of this country.

People really need to wake up. There is no mathmatical possibility that we can continue the domestic and foreign policies we have been following for some time now (not just the last 6 months). They are simply not supportable. No way, no how. This is the reality of the sitution. We cannot ignor it.

Again, OUR CURRENT SPENDING, DEBT, AND UNFUNDED LIABILITIES ARE NOT SUPPORTABLE WITH ANY REALISTIC ECONOMIC MODEL. PERIOD. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL ARGUMENT.