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"Nutrition for Athletes" - White Bread vs Whole Grain? Ascending Calories?

You defend your standpoint well. I’m curious what happens with the brains functions (as well as my previously mentioned ideas on PNS) on long term keto? It can’t be all good, can it? What happens with intelligence and neurons over time? Not ruling out the necessity of becoming keto on a short term basis, in order to compete in bodybuilding (is THAT healthy btw?). Now I’m derailing…

Apologies, I edited my post which would have covered your point off.

I can only apply Occam’s Razor here: out of the 3 macronutrients, why would giving up a non-essential one (carbs) ever be deemed unhealthy? A better question would be ‘how many non-essential macronutrients could I have before I should be concerned for my health?’

I havent had a multitude in dietary education, but I once had a lecturer in physiology mention a bizarre example of the necessity of carbohydrates: When salvaging refugees from concentration camps in the end of 2nd worldwar, they tried to start treating the starvation with protein - which resulted in death. They soon discovered that providing carbohydrates prior to protein, resulted in a positive outcome. Now, this is an extreme example, doubtfully applicable here.

I am only speaking from an anecdotal experience, but I know of a number of individuals who used low carb for positive results (in terms of weight loss, managing diabetes, etc.), however despite good outcomes NONE of them were ever able to sustain it. They lasted six months, maybe a year, or whatever it might be. But they seemingly just got sick of eat low/non-carb foods. They couldn’t do it any longer. But is it something more than just sheer boredom? Is there something inherent that happens over time that makes it too difficult to ignore or go without carbs? I don’t know.

I recall a guy on the old forum years back who went by “Jerry”. He was probably the board’s biggest proponent of low carb (and Heavy Duty for that matter). He lost lots of weight and got very lean on low carb, but later confessed he couldn’t stick with it any longer but continued to do pretty well eating a modest amount of carbs (fibrous) and a more “balanced” diet.

It’s almost analogous to me as failure training. I don’t know of many if any people who can sustain going to true positive failure 100% of the on every exercise of every workout ‘forever’. They can do it for periods of time or cycles, but not all of the time; the exception might be people who were doing one or two exercises every 7-10 days ala consolidation training, but I have a difficult time considering that ‘training’ just from sheer experience with it.

Any type of diet and exercise regimen has to be sustainable for the long haul to be successful (outside of special events or limited periods of time).

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Essential nutrients are the inputs you absolutely have to have to avoid death. I don’t see why it necessarily follows that the ideal or optimal diet is therefore one which contains only things that are known to be essential. Would you then suggest we should also limit ourselves to the minimum quantity of those things that are required to merely survive? Perhaps one can aspire to more?

With regard to ketones and the brain. Animals have developed all kinds of adaptations that allow them to survive periods of food shortage. The ability of the brain live off ketones used to be viewed as an adaption to get through periods of starvation. It seems a stretch to suggest that therefore we ought to live in a starvation-like state all the time.

I don’t know for a fact, but highly suspect that all mammals have brains that run off a mixture of glucose and ketones. And yet not all mammals have evolved to live on high fat, moderate protein diets. Rabbits, cows, big cats, and primates all have brains that run off a mixture ketones and glucose. Yet the optimal diet for a carnivore and a herbivore are quite different. That suggests to me that brain metabolism doesn’t necessarily dictate diet.

Also, if you trace our lineage back 7 or 8 million years, our ancestors probably looked a lot like chimpanzees and probably ate mostly fruit and leaves, with just an occasional bit of meat. With that kind of starting point, is 7+ million years of evolution enough to have converted us into obligate fativores?

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Pro-Atkins diet gurus always bring up the words non-essential when describing carbohydrates. This is just a clever subterfuge of words unfortunately.

Glucose is so essential to our survival that the human body has a mechanism to produce it. Humans make amylase to digest starch, lions don’t. Although carbohydrates are not classed as essential, the human body seems to be fitted with the tools to produce and to digest carbohydrates. We could argue that glucose is so metabolically necessary that we humans have evolved to produce it and digest it. When you limit carbohydrates, however, you deprive your body of a main source of fuel — and many essential nutrients that you need to stay healthy, not to mention dietary fiber.

I also realize that diet is a very contentious subject, and dietary encampments are solid in their beliefs. It is at times like Moses came down from the mountain with the stones containing the 10 dietary commandments. Not everyone can be right about diet. The human being is an omnivore. Furthermore, all can find successful examples of their various dietary beliefs. For certain, not enough food leads to death, and too much leads to obesity. Finances determine what people eat as well as culture, traditions, and beliefs. Go figure! For certain, I have never seen a hungry man turn down bread, but, I’ve seen very few truly hungry men in the U.S.A.

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also "age " and “hormones” by my view is the big players . genetics makeup is factor in fat & carb metabolism, {e.g. ApoE 4 gene }

You’ve made quite a number of disparate points here.

First, as I mentioned, your dietary intake should be based on your current health, or health you aspire to. Food and drink are there to be enjoyed after all.

Second, regarding ketones. You don’t have have to be in starvation mode to produce them. A simple absence of carbohydrates is sufficient.

As mentioned, there is very good science now showing how brains have become insulin resistant and the damage caused.

Nonsense on so many levels. Glucose is essential NOT carbohydrate. And we have already established that is manufactured by the body independent of carbohydrate intake.

And whether we can process carbohydrates or not is largely irrelevant. The same can be said of alcohol, tobacco, drugs. Where do you draw the line? Everything that goes inside us causes some oxidative stress. And unsurprisingly some foods causes more than others. You can work out the next bit.