Novel Approaches to E Management? Considerations After Crashing Estradiol Again

Pharma / TRT
1

39yrs old, 260lbs, 12 years lifting
Running 600mg test cyp and 400mg tren e, weekly
Iinitial labs had estradiol at 127.4 pg/ml)
Began aromasin at 12.5mg 3x wk

Two weeks later labs failed to detect estradiol (<2.5 pg/ml). In other words, crashed. Empirical symptoms consistent with low estrogen.

This is not the first time I’ve crashed my estrogen to undetectable levels and frankly, it’s getting annoying. Especially when prepping for a competition. I’ve crashed 3 times before on arimidex. Each time I’ve returned to using an AI I have lowered the dose. After the last crash I did a little more research, spoke with some knowledgeable people and decided to try aromasin. Same results. I have never taken an AI proactively, it is only after high estrogen symptoms are confirmed by labs. I believe I am an over-responder to AI’s.

I’m up to date on the current body of advice in the wake of estrogen crash - wait it out, stop taking the AI, do fewer injections but higher amounts, do IM injections, use dhea, hcg, pregnenolone, etc…

For those of us who have crashed E2 and felt its crippling effects, relief cannot come soon enough. And while the advice may be sound, it also seems a little anemic for what in my mind has been the most profound negative side effect from AAS use and management. I suspect that is because there are relatively few of us that have really been in the shit with regard to crashed estrogen.

This is not a thread for the casual AAS user or the guys that have no trouble with managing estrogen or whom have never crashed it. This is for those of us who’s estrogen is like two fat kids on a teeter totter with a fulcrum as fine as a razor.

With all the use of AAS and ancillaries, why haven’t we considered exogenous management of estrogen/estradiol? Two drugs, an AI and exogenous estradiol could solve this problem, couldn’t it? The AI (like aromasin) used in a high enough dose to eliminate aromatization (and in so doing wipe out all endogenous estrogen) paired with low dose exogenous estradiol (eg Estrace) would allow us to “dial in” estradiol, would it not? Am I missing something here?

If that is too great a leap, what about simply using exogenous estradiol as a first response to an estrogen crash? Perhaps a short course of low dose?

On the other we have recovery from a crash. Would clomid help? We all know that clomid has two isomers, zuclomifene which is estrogenic and enclomifene which is antiestrogneic. Depending on the tissue and the isomer, clomid can produce positive or negative effects (greatly simplified). Could it help restore the most commonly associated negative side effects of an estrogen crash? Namely libido, energy, and sense of well being? Could it expedite recovery?

I know what many of you are thinking. Wait it out. Wait it out. I’ve done that, I will do that again if necessary, but I think its time we advanced the cause for those of us for whom this is a major issue.

Jack

2

Have you ever tried Nolvadex/Tamoxifen? This post is a great example to those that think they have to have an AI ran all the time.

3

What was your Testosterone at when you had estradiol at 127?

4

No but going forward this may be the best option. My coach suggested the same.

About 1300

5

@jackswole I’ve been talking about this for a while. Not just with those who crash easily but even more so for the guys with wild out of control e2 due to excess aromatization. I have spoken with one guy who actually did it. Are all ai’s hard on the lipid profile? I’ve heard aromasin is much better for you than arimidex. A suicidal ai would be ideal. Wipe out the enzyme and optimize the e2. It makes total sense to me.

6

I spent a good 9-12 months researching, and contemplating my first cycle. I have high cholesterol genetically, and everything I read was that Adex was rough on lipid panel. However, I read mixed reviews about Aromasin, but more so favored reports of it being better on lipid profile.

During my first cycle, I took Aromasin E3D. My LDL went down. I was taking Red Yeast Rice and Niacin, so I’m sure that helped, however i had been taking it for months prior to cycle. But i can say for certain that Aromasin did not negatively affect my lipids.

7

I could be wrong, but I believe it’s not the AI itself so much as the effect of the AI on estrogens which impacts lipid profiles. Perhaps another reason why actively managing estrogen via exogenous estrogen (and so to being able to dial cholesterol up or down) would be beneficial.

8

I have a simple solution for you when you crash your e2 unexpectedly: take 20mg dbol for a day or two. You get an immediate response from it and it isn’t a high enough dose for you to get too bloated, especially since you’re preparing for competition. But it will get you back within a normal(ish) range fast. It’s not a long term solution, obviously, but it’s probably easier to control than dialing in exogenous estradiol.

1 Like
9

I had the same thoughts as you had and created a thread about it: Using an AI to Stop Estrogen Production & Taking Estrogen Pills

When I crash my estrogen, I take estrogen pills or gel or patch for a few days

10

Not asking for specific sources but estrogen is a prescription drug right?

11

In my country it’s not, neither the AIs (but testosterone is).

12

But isn’t Arimidex what most endos prescribe to TRT patients?

13

This might be a good thread to start adex vs aromasin. Iv used both if I were to ever use an AI on cycle again it def would be aromasin.

14

Correct. Arimidex is what most doctors prescribe. Does that make it right… no. Not necessarily.

15

So glad to see this topic getting some traction, thanks alldayeveryday and thebigzerg27 for picking up where I left off.

My two cents, for what it’s worth, is that if we are going to go no holds barred on aromatase we shouldn’t waste our time on gen 2, reversible AI’s like letrozole (Femara) or anastrozole (Arimidex) - they are reversible and furthermore can be unseated by competing compounds. Estrogen rebound is well established with regard to Adex in particular.

Exemestane (Aromasin) is a suicidal, irreversible AI. Once exemestane does it’s thing, it’s a done deal, that aromatase enzyme is done.

An argument could be made that it would be better to reestablish endogenous estrogen quickly at the end of cycle, however we are again at the mercy of aromatase. Perhaps too much estrogen is made too quickly. I would rather manage a slow taper of exogenous estrogen which would afford time to get labs, etc…

16

No it not. There is absolutely no scientific data backing this it’s bro science and don’t get me wrong I’m all about some quality bro science but this isn’t that.

I do agree that aromasin is superior tho. It’s also IMO much easier to dose. The margin for error with adding seems very small where as with aromasin it doesn’t seem to plummet E2 and from what iv seen from people’s experience including my own there seems to be a more broadly accepted dosing protocol.

Disclaimer :Still doesn’t chnage my opinion on the use of AIs on blast tho lol but if it’s a must I’d suggest aromasin unless you know from past experience and lab test what adec dose it right for you

1 Like
17

I stand corrected. My information came from people and a few AAS profile websites, not clinical studies, and you are absolutely right - that doesn’t constitute “well established”

1 Like
18

I have no idea if this kill your E2 and replace it with creams or pills work but I got to ask There is an E2 because there is an E1 and E3 what happens to them? Don’t tell me they are not important without backing it up no broscience BS please.

19

That’s a good question. It’s my understanding that E1 is a “reservoir” for E2. Based on my digging around it seems E3s role is not understood? I’m glad your not arguing whether it would work or not because obviously it would work for some and others maybe not so much but save the “explain this to me and make it real good” because nobody has to dance for you. This is I think a topic that more people should be discussing and for some really difficult E2 cases it could be a total game changer. The problem really isnt high E2 but over active conversion by aromatase. In men E1 E2 and E3 come from Testosterone right? So you give the male body exactly what it needs for both. I know this isnt the scientific answer you are looking for but it’s a conversation worth having with or without bs links for you to click on.

20

Wow man I wasn’t asking anyone to dance. I just did not want broscience BS. You know the kind of crap the kids throw around.

Thank you for your take on this. I feel the the same an I am looking forward to learning more.
I am even willing to help if I can.

I actively blast twice a year. I usually let my E2 run high I feel it protects my joints from the excessive stress I put on them while blasting. I push as hard as possible durning week 5-10 of my 12 week blast. By the 10th week I am cooked. There is nothing left in the tank and my recovery starts to suffer. I worry about injury. It is like I loose the drive I had on week 5.

Ah week 5. Its better than your first piece of ass. Oh sorry I was day dreaming. haha.

Is this because I let my E2 run too high for too long? I don’t care about high E2 symptoms like my dick quits working. I’m not thinking about sex I want gains for my effort and risk to my body.

If controlling my E2 late in the game gets me more I am all in.