T Nation

Not Tapping

I went to a BJJ competition Saturday (just to watch and get a feel for it) and one kid didn’t tap and got his arm broken, another didn’t tap and was put to sleep.

Why wouldn’t they just tap? I don’t see how tapping hurts pride more then getting an arm broken. Anyone have insight?

[quote]pch2 wrote:
I went to a BJJ competition Saturday (just to watch and get a feel for it) and one kid didn’t tap and got his arm broken, another didn’t tap and was put to sleep.

Why wouldn’t they just tap? I don’t see how tapping hurts pride more then getting an arm broken. Anyone have insight?[/quote]

Some camps are really big on this. They see it as a disgrace to give up. So instead, they’d rather get their arm broken/get put to sleep than to say “uncle”. The Gracie family for example is real big on this.

Being put to sleep, I can understand. It’s not going to do any permanent damage to you, an you’ll pretty much be fine in a couple of minutes. But getting your arm broken, or rotator cuff blown out, or knee blown out just for the sake of pride is stupid IMO. Some of those are career ending injuries, and even if they’re not, you’re going to be paying for them down the road.

It also depends on the submission. Some submissions (like arm bars, chokes, shoulder locks, knee bars, achilles locks) you feel the pain/effects from the lock well before it is going to do serious damage. So you can fight them longer. This could potentially wind up with you overestimating the amount of time/ROM that you have to fight, and wind up getting hurt/going to sleep.

Others (like heel hooks and small digit locks) you may not feel anything until the joint actually goes. Which is why a lot of competitions don’t allow these locks.

In practice, you almost always want to tap if you know that the person has really got the lock in well. If you can defend it before then of course do. But there’s no use in potentially getting an injury that’s not going to allow you to train for months, just for the sake of ego.

I’ve had my thumb snapped before (yes, we used to train allowing small digit locks), and I really didn’t even feel any pain and thought that I could fight out of the lock. That was until I heard my thumb snap (sounded like someone snapping a raw carrot in half) and felt the joint just completely go.

Luckily it was just a dislocation (may have torn a ligament, I dont know, the doctor didn’t seem to think so, but I didn’t have any x-rays done), and the thumb actually popped right back into place as soon as my training partner let go of it. I had full functionality immediately following as well, and it really didn’t even hurt that much, more numb than anything.

But, boy oh boy did it hurt later that night and the next day. It pretty much put me out of training seriously for at least a couple months.

Don’t be dumb like I was, know when you’re beat and tap.

How old were these guys? Most of the kids divisions(under 18) that I’ve observed, the ref will stop the match if the arm gets extended or is in a position to get injured before it is broken and award the win…I wouldn’t be too thrilled with losing that way, but it would be way better than getting my arm broken because I’m being an idiot.

[quote]slimjim wrote:
How old were these guys? Most of the kids divisions(under 18) that I’ve observed, the ref will stop the match if the arm gets extended or is in a position to get injured before it is broken and award the win…I wouldn’t be too thrilled with losing that way, but it would be way better than getting my arm broken because I’m being an idiot.[/quote]

I’m sorry, they weren’t actually kids, I’m letting how I speak seep into how I write. They were adults, both were probably in their mid to late 20s.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Being put to sleep, I can understand. It’s not going to do any permanent damage to you, an you’ll pretty much be fine in a couple of minutes. But getting your arm broken, or rotator cuff blown out, or knee blown out just for the sake of pride is stupid IMO. Some of those are career ending injuries, and even if they’re not, you’re going to be paying for them down the road.[/quote]

This is exactly how I felt about it. Sleeping is temporary; a broken arm is going to take him out of the gym for a while.

It was an arm bar, but it was evident he wasn’t going to be able to get out of it. I can see the whole thinking you have time thing, that makes sense.

Fools and their shoulders are easily separated.

I can see just going to sleep with a choke, but not tapping an armbar, or a heel hook? Fuuuuuuck that. I can repair my pride on my own, that other shit costs money.

[quote]analog_kid wrote:
I can see just going to sleep with a choke, but not tapping an armbar, or a heel hook? Fuuuuuuck that. I can repair my pride on my own, that other shit costs money. [/quote]

One guy didn’t tap a heel hook until it got to the third very loud pop. He just walked away after tapping, but by the end of the day you could tell he was in a lot of pain. I just don’t get it.

That’s what happens when you let pride get in the way of common sense.

When I first started rolling I would sometimes wait before tapping, thinking I could possibly escape the hold I was in. I quickly learned that was a stupid strategy and now as soon as I get caught in something, I’m tapping and moving on.

[quote]pch2 wrote:
slimjim wrote:
How old were these guys? Most of the kids divisions(under 18) that I’ve observed, the ref will stop the match if the arm gets extended or is in a position to get injured before it is broken and award the win…I wouldn’t be too thrilled with losing that way, but it would be way better than getting my arm broken because I’m being an idiot.

I’m sorry, they weren’t actually kids, I’m letting how I speak seep into how I write. They were adults, both were probably in their mid to late 20s. [/quote]

No worries, I’ve seen the syndrome a lot as well…too much pride I guess, I hate watching a guy try to fight off a heel hook that’s sunk just cause he doesn’t want to tap, always makes me cringe.

Maybe if it was the blackbelt finals at mundials or Abu Dhabi or something and I was up 4 pts with thirty seconds left…but if it’s a local tourney or practice there’s no way I’m going to take a broken arm instead of tapping.

You don’t feel much pain with the adrenaline pumping, there for giving you the hope for a few extra seconds to escape.

It’s not so much a pride thing, just a risk of knowing your limits.

I’ve been sleeped once. I Just didn’t feel the choke that hard to tap out, so i didn’t tap. couple of minutes after that i wake up and remembered that i was competing.

I guess its a combination of too much machismo/pride
and bad officiating.

I have competed hurt or badly hurt with injuries that
should have stopped the match but given the chance to tap
or snap, I would tap.

I did go to one school for a while where I was told that Men walk.
Not losers and its attitudes like that where people get hurt.

kmc

I have guys like that in training. I hate it. I used to just let up on the sub. Now, I figure, if they want broken necks or arms, they can have them.

Zero sympathy for people who won’t tap. I crank the fuck out of subs now.

I tap early. If they won’t, fuck 'em.

Most of those guys have no understanding of training longevity.

It’s like the young assholes who come in and want to bang. They want to throw all out. Those fuckers won’t be training in a few months. They come in on fire and burn out fast.

I want to be training 5 years from now. So I tap and don’t bang hard when doing stand up. I work on transitions, form, and timing.

Guys who are 19-24 are the biggest dumb asses. They think they’re such swinging dicks.

Now, when they come in and want to bang, I give them what they ask for. I used to feel like an asshole, but being nice just got my bell rung. After this one guy rang my bell the second time when I was going easy and fuck on him, I fucking liver punched him. Now he slows down.

I almost broke another guy’s neck. Had a tight guillotine in guard. He didn’t want to tap, even though it was tight as fuck. So I swept him to mount and cranked it. Now he taps early.

I learned that playing nice with guys like that is a danger to me. I’d go easy and then end up getting hurt. So now my rule is: “I’ll let you decide how hard we’re going to go.” The minute they spaz or get big egos, I return the favor.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Most of those guys have no understanding of training longevity.

It’s like the young assholes who come in and want to bang. They want to throw all out. Those fuckers won’t be training in a few months. They come in on fire and burn out fast.

I want to be training 5 years from now. So I tap and don’t bang hard when doing stand up. I work on transitions, form, and timing.

Guys who are 19-24 are the biggest dumb asses. They think they’re such swinging dicks.

Now, when they come in and want to bang, I give them what they ask for. I used to feel like an asshole, but being nice just got my bell rung. After this one guy rang my bell the second time when I was going easy and fuck on him, I fucking liver punched him. Now he slows down.

I almost broke another guy’s neck. Had a tight guillotine in guard. He didn’t want to tap, even though it was tight as fuck. So I swept him to mount and cranked it. Now he taps early.

I learned that playing nice with guys like that is a danger to me. I’d go easy and then end up getting hurt. So now my rule is: “I’ll let you decide how hard we’re going to go.” The minute they spaz or get big egos, I return the favor.[/quote]

Amen CaliLaw.

I’m with you, California Law.

I used to have a teacher who would constantly remind us that if we wanted to retain the ability to train for years we should “tap early and often”.

This thread as taught me I need to defiantly need to go to a grappling school.

2 years Taekwondo wont teach you when you need to tap out because your knees about to come off.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Fools and their shoulders are easily separated. [/quote]

LOL…Now that was funny.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

Now, when they come in and want to bang, I give them what they ask for. I used to feel like an asshole, but being nice just got my bell rung. [/quote]

I wish I had learned this lesson earlier. It would have saved me an extra broken nose and a KO.