T Nation

Not Progressing with Bench, WS4SB


#72

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Hey, I forgot to ask, but how much does working on your traps and grip matter with regard to being able to bench press more? I ask this, because while I have been totally consistent with doing all of the upper body exercises on both the max-effort and repetition upper body days during each week, on some weeks I have skipped the max-effort lower body days. This means that I haven’t really been doing shoulder shrugs and grip exercises as much as I should be.[/quote]

Just go do a 5x5 program and stop asking questions.


#73

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
some weeks I have skipped the max-effort lower body days.[/quote]

Why have you been doing this?


#74

If I decided to bench press heavy twice a week as opposed to bench pressing heavy once week on max effort day with the WS4SB program, then would I actually have to change to a completely different program? I don’t want to lose the hypertrophy and muscular endurance gains I made from doing the WS4SB program. Also, I don’t want to give up the assistance exercises since I know that they are supposed to be effective for prehabbing specific joints and muscles.


#75

This program is way too complicated for you.


#76

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Hey, I forgot to ask, but how much does working on your traps and grip matter with regard to being able to bench press more? I ask this, because while I have been totally consistent with doing all of the upper body exercises on both the max-effort and repetition upper body days during each week, on some weeks I have skipped the max-effort lower body days. This means that I haven’t really been doing shoulder shrugs and grip exercises as much as I should be.[/quote]

We actually identified the problem earlier in the thread. The issue isn’t you skipping lower body days, it’s because you are unable to identify your weaknesses and select the movements necessary to improve them. Once you do that, you should make great gains, but until then, you will be spinning your wheels.


#77

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Hey, I forgot to ask, but how much does working on your traps and grip matter with regard to being able to bench press more? I ask this, because while I have been totally consistent with doing all of the upper body exercises on both the max-effort and repetition upper body days during each week, on some weeks I have skipped the max-effort lower body days. This means that I haven’t really been doing shoulder shrugs and grip exercises as much as I should be.[/quote]

We actually identified the problem earlier in the thread. The issue isn’t you skipping lower body days, it’s because you are unable to identify your weaknesses and select the movements necessary to improve them. Once you do that, you should make great gains, but until then, you will be spinning your wheels.[/quote]

You would think someone worried about his shins getting a muscle imbalance with his calves if he didn’t get any Tibialis Anterior work in wouldn’t skip so many lower body days.

I want you to take 6 months and follow this advice: "Pick a program from this list (5/3/1, Starting Strenght, Strong Lifts, no WS4SB because it lets you think to much). Then I want you to think of yourself as a brain-damaged mule, lost in a desert, helpless, dumb, and in constant need of direction. Never take the initiative, never strike out on your own, and never deviate from the plan. Why? Because you’re a brain-damaged mule and you’re lost in the damn desert and Wendler, Rip, or the Stronglifts guy are the only ones that can lead you out.


#78

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I want you to take 6 months and follow this advice: "Pick a program from this list (5/3/1, Starting Strenght, Strong Lifts, no WS4SB because it lets you think to much).[/quote]
you think 5/3/1 is LESS complicated than WS4SB??


#79

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I want you to take 6 months and follow this advice: "Pick a program from this list (5/3/1, Starting Strenght, Strong Lifts, no WS4SB because it lets you think to much).[/quote]
you think 5/3/1 is LESS complicated than WS4SB??[/quote]

Wooosh


#80

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
And if you are only benching around 135 you are not strong enough for WS4SB.
[/quote]

?

The entire point of WS4SB is to build strength for beginner athletes.[/quote]

Yup.

Aero, your comment is pretty stupid too.


#81

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I want you to take 6 months and follow this advice: "Pick a program from this list (5/3/1, Starting Strenght, Strong Lifts, no WS4SB because it lets you think to much).[/quote]
you think 5/3/1 is LESS complicated than WS4SB??[/quote]

There is far too much “pick one of these” in the WS4SB for it to be ideal for someone with a case of “paralysis by analysis” as bad as Bull_Scientist. Don’t misunderstand, I think that it is a great program but for someone who cant get out of their own way as bad as this poor soul you need something that just says to XYZ Sleep, Eat with no room for personalization. 5/3/1 is far more standardized.

You have to consider the mentality of your audience when picking an ideal program for someone and Bull doesn’t need to have to think. He just needs a do this and don’t ask questions program.


#82

Just do a 5x5 program and stop asking questions.


#83

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You have to consider the mentality of your audience when picking an ideal program for someone and Bull doesn’t need to have to think. He just needs a do this and don’t ask questions program. [/quote]
That’s just the thing…5/3/1 is a BOOK, WS4SB is a PAGE. I just think he’ll have 50 times as many questions with all the percentages, training day options, BBB options etc. There’s an entire forum on this site dedicated to it. I like the idea of a simple 5x5 plan though.


#84

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You have to consider the mentality of your audience when picking an ideal program for someone and Bull doesn’t need to have to think. He just needs a do this and don’t ask questions program. [/quote]
That’s just the thing…5/3/1 is a BOOK, WS4SB is a PAGE. I just think he’ll have 50 times as many questions with all the percentages, training day options, BBB options etc. There’s an entire forum on this site dedicated to it. I like the idea of a simple 5x5 plan though.[/quote]

WS4SB is a page that is based off of a training program built around thousands of pages of literature from the former soviet republic on strength training compiled by Louie Simmons. The Westside method on which it’s based is far more complicated than 5/3/1, and without understanding said method to some extent, you’re just firing blindly and hoping for the best, which we are witnessing in this very thread. With 5/3/1, you calculate your percentages, pick an assistance template and rock on.


#85

[quote]flch95 wrote:
That’s just the thing…5/3/1 is a BOOK, WS4SB is a PAGE.[/quote]

? WS4SB is a page? Oh my.

5/3/1 is a book because Wendler wrote a book. The basic concept behind 5/3/1 (slow and steady progress on the four basic lifts by constantly challenging rep/weight PR along with minimal assistance work meant more to supplement the main lifts than be a challenge onto themselves plus hard conditioning to grow some balls) is really simple though. The fact that you can customize it to whatever you want is what allows Wendler to write a book, not the complexity behind it.

WS4SB is complex. I honestly had no idea how to implement it effectively, and so I never bothered trying it.

The OP is much better served at this point just following stronglift 5x5 to the letter while starting with the bar on all the main lifts and coming back to the forum when he stalls again.


#86

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You have to consider the mentality of your audience when picking an ideal program for someone and Bull doesn’t need to have to think. He just needs a do this and don’t ask questions program. [/quote]
That’s just the thing…5/3/1 is a BOOK, WS4SB is a PAGE. I just think he’ll have 50 times as many questions with all the percentages, training day options, BBB options etc. There’s an entire forum on this site dedicated to it. I like the idea of a simple 5x5 plan though.[/quote]

This really makes it seem like you do not fully understand either program if you can say this is your honest opinion. WS4SB is so far removed from a one page workout. Just giving the outline of it is one page but exercise selection/combination, rep ranges and weight selection are all highly individualized and the principals behind the program need to be fully understood before implementing it. Did you not know that there was that quantity of personalization in WS4SB??


#87

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You have to consider the mentality of your audience when picking an ideal program for someone and Bull doesn’t need to have to think. He just needs a do this and don’t ask questions program. [/quote]
That’s just the thing…5/3/1 is a BOOK, WS4SB is a PAGE. I just think he’ll have 50 times as many questions with all the percentages, training day options, BBB options etc. There’s an entire forum on this site dedicated to it. I like the idea of a simple 5x5 plan though.[/quote]

This really makes it seem like you do not fully understand either program if you can say this is your honest opinion. WS4SB is so far removed from a one page workout. Just giving the outline of it is one page but exercise selection/combination, rep ranges and weight selection are all highly individualized and the principals behind the program need to be fully understood before implementing it. Did you not know that there was that quantity of personalization in WS4SB??[/quote]
Do you not think that the descriptions on the WS4SB website is enough to get started?? Seems to be enough for countless people. You pick exercises from a list. Do you honestly think that having to work out percentages is easier??? If it was so simple why is there an entire forum dedicated to it on this site??

Can you explain further what is so complicated about the program?? I might be missing something; I just took another look at WS4SB II and III and I’m not seeing the confusion.


#88

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You have to consider the mentality of your audience when picking an ideal program for someone and Bull doesn’t need to have to think. He just needs a do this and don’t ask questions program. [/quote]
That’s just the thing…5/3/1 is a BOOK, WS4SB is a PAGE. I just think he’ll have 50 times as many questions with all the percentages, training day options, BBB options etc. There’s an entire forum on this site dedicated to it. I like the idea of a simple 5x5 plan though.[/quote]

This really makes it seem like you do not fully understand either program if you can say this is your honest opinion. WS4SB is so far removed from a one page workout. Just giving the outline of it is one page but exercise selection/combination, rep ranges and weight selection are all highly individualized and the principals behind the program need to be fully understood before implementing it. Did you not know that there was that quantity of personalization in WS4SB??[/quote]
Do you not think that the descriptions on the WS4SB website is enough to get started?? Seems to be enough for countless people. You pick exercises from a list. Do you honestly think that having to work out percentages is easier??? If it was so simple why is there an entire forum dedicated to it on this site??

Can you explain further what is so complicated about the program?? I might be missing something; I just took another look at WS4SB II and III and I’m not seeing the confusion.[/quote]

It is the what and the why of exercise selection. If you actually think that your calves and tibialis anterior muscles my become imbalanced do you really need to be doing a program that lets you personalize?

What are your best “indicator” exercises?
What few Max effort lifts best work on those indicators?
What supplemental lifts work best to improve those max effort lifts?
Which ancillary exercises best improve the weaknesses that are potentially holding back my progress on my indicator exercises?
What conditioning exercises will not affect my strength progress negatively and still be beneficial to my overall performance?

That is just the questions that have to be fully understood having to do with exercise selection. Then you have to worry about loading.

With 5/3/1 you ask two questions, What version do I want to do (I would recommend something like BBB for the OP) and What are my Training Maxes? Both super easy questions to answer and require no real thought.


#89

[quote]flch95 wrote:
Do you not think that the descriptions on the WS4SB website is enough to get started?? Seems to be enough for countless people. You pick exercises from a list. Do you honestly think that having to work out percentages is easier??? If it was so simple why is there an entire forum dedicated to it on this site??

Can you explain further what is so complicated about the program?? I might be missing something; I just took another look at WS4SB II and III and I’m not seeing the confusion.[/quote]

Working off percentages is damn easy. Make a spreadsheet of %ages. Bring it to the gym. Update every 4 weeks. DONE.

I agree that BS will probably find ways to overcomplicate 5/3/1, but not for the reasons you suggest. If he picks an assistance template and sticks to it, then yes, it will be simple as hell. But he probably won’t.

The part where most people fuck up 5/3/1 is because the program offers so much leeway in terms of choosing assistance, that people modify existing structures or make their own with all the intelligence of monkeys on crack.


#90

Hey everyone, Happy New Years!

I am sorry for bumping this thread again, but I need help again as the bench press has become more frustrating to me.

A couple weeks ago, I joined an L.A. fitness gym within my area. They have olympic barbells there, of course. Before joining that gym, I would work out at my spa club or at home with weight equipment that includes a Phoenix bench, a 10lbs. Standard barbell with some standard weight plates to use, and standard dumbbell handles. Last Thurs. at the L.A. fitness gym, I was able to bench press (with one of the Olympic barbells) 160 lbs. on the 1st working set for 4 reps, 150 lbs. for 5 reps on the 2nd working set, and 150 lbs. for 5 reps on the 3rd working set.

I thought I finally started to make significant progress on my bench after having deloaded then gradually reload back to 145 lbs. within 2 weeks and then finally progress to to doing at least 150 lbs. for 3 sets of 5 reps (I didn’t realize until after finishing the first working set at the gym that day that I accidentally put on a total of 160 lbs. on the 1st working set).

However, when I worked out yesterday at home with my weight equipment at home (since I actually didn’t have time to go to the gym club) I could only bench with 155 lbs for 2 reps on the 1st working set, 150lbs. for 3 reps on the 2nd working set, and 145 lbs. for 4 reps on the 3rd working set. So, I am wondering why can’t I bench as much with the standard barbell as I can with an Olympic barbell?


#91

You benched more by accident, not knowing that it was this much. You believed you would be able to handle this weight - so you did. Do you see where I’m going? You’re not believing in yourself. I could probably load a bar with 140, tell you 'this is 170 and you’d fail to lift it because you’d THINK it’s heavy. Stop thinking so much is what I’M saying. Unless your grip width was completely different with the two bars, this is really the only explanation - and it makes sense.