T Nation

Not Much of a Choice


Hi everybody, I'am 26 215lbs(around 13-14% bf). My maxes are 330/375/475 bench squat deadlift. I have been lifting for 6years but I haven't gone anywhere in the last 1.5 years.
No weight gain no strength gain. I have upped my calories to 5.5-6k for 6 months and I have gained nothing but fat and I was force feeding myself (not a nice experience). I sleep well I have no stress I am healthy as a horse and I train my ass off. (So please STFU about thinking this through)
This is the reason why I have decided to run a cycle as a last resort.

Before you start to flame, I just want to say there is NO test depot available where I live (foreign). I have access to the listed gear (I am 100% sure they are real, a pharmacologist friend will fix me up.) As you will see most of them are cheaper than shit. and yes, there is NOTHING else available anywhere near me.

primobolan depot (5$/100mg)
sustanon (4$/250mg)
anadrol (20tabs 50mg 18$)
metyltestosterone (40tabs 25mg 4$)
--maybe-- deca durabolin (??)
testosteron undecanoate (30caps 40mg 12$)
Mesterolon (20tabs 25mg 7.5$)
tamoxifen citrate (10mg 30tabs 9$)

So, any suggestions?


Sustanon is testosterone.

Do some research and propose a cycle plan.

Read the stickies as well.


I know sustanon is test.

I was researching on doing a 12week 500mg test Enanthate only cycle followed by a pct but that is not possible.
Now I'm considering an primo only cycle 500 maybe 600mgs a week. I guess I won't need pct with that. I read about primo and proviron on this site. I really want to know more about that.

I have been told to stay away from sustanon as a beginner but he was small so who gives a fuck what he thinks. I don't know anything about sustanon (except that it is mixed test).

So, I have been doing some research but I am not educated about planning a cycle on my own anyway.


Testosterone is the same, regardless of the name it goes by. The only difference is how often it needs to be injected, based on the ester.

Primo cycle + No PCT = bad cycle.

Please read all of the stickied threads before posting again. You are lacking basic knowledge that is readily available on this forum alone. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do research from other places. What it does mean is that you shouldn't be asking questions on this board that can easily be answered by reading the information that is available here.

Keep reading until you are educated enough to plan your own cycle, based on your goals (which you haven't outlined; that is just one of the things you left out in your intial post). There are two main reasons why this is necessary. First is that no one is here to walk people through a cycle, not for free at least. And the second is that if you don't know enough about planning a cycle how will you know if the information you are receiving is the right information.


you could make a decent cycle out of those drugs listed with a bit of research so dont worry about not having enough juice at your disposal

research is as important as having the right drugs for success


I third that - and so you know, Sustanon is no different in its effects overall to Testosterone Enanthate.. use it instead, but inject it daily to make the best of the Propionate ester (75-100mg/day will make for a decent cycle base - with 75mg/day being plenty for a beginner) :wink:


I don't like the idea of using sustanon for a first cycle, purely because the esters takes too long to clear the system. A "normal" 10 week cycle will supress you for a good 13+ weeks before you can start PCT.
Since you have cheap and real primobolan avaliable to you. I think you will do well from a primo first cycle

Week 1-8 Primobolan depot 600mg inject 200mg mon wed fri, frontloaded
[Week 1-11 Mesterolon aka Proviron 25mg/day and 10mg/day of tamoxifen citrate]
[Week1-8 Oral testosterone undecanoate 200mg/day, week 9-10 taper down to nothing]
[Week 1-9 sustanon 250mg every 9days, with above mentioned proviron and tamoxifen]

Week 11-12 Tamoxifen citrate aka nolvadex 40mg/day
week 13-14 Tamoxifen citrate 20mg/day

Mesterolon should provide some DHT while your natural testosterone production is supressed. And keep your libido up. The 10mg of tamoxifen will provide some estrogen and help out the lipid profile.
Alternatively, you can use oral testosterone undecanoate aka Andriol. The purpose of adding oral testosterone product is not to gain of it, since bio-avaliability is really poor. But to to achieve "natural" level of testosterone in your body, and proper DHT conversion and estrogen conversion.
I know some people is going to blast me about the sustanon usage, just keep in mind it's more for HRT purpose in this case.

Personally I would do the following

Week 1-6 Primobolan 700mg/week (200mg EOD), 400mg of day one, and 400mg on day two to achieve peak blood concertration
Week 1-6 Oral testosterone undecanoate 200mg/day
Week 7-8 oral testosterone undecanoate taper down to nothing
Week 9-12 Tamoxifen 20/20/10/10 (I respond well to it at lower dosage)

I felt that shorter cycles are easier to recover from. And if training and diet is perfect, good gains can still be made.


On Primobolan-only cycles:

It's fair to wonder, why are all-non-aromatizing cycles generally bad, on account of estrogen going too low, but Primobolan-only has a good reputation?

I have only one case report on it but do know of one case where 400 mg/week Primobolan, for some extended time (I forget what) did not drop T below the normal range. Apparently that dose was not fully suppressive at least for that individual.

If that is common, then that would explain why excessively low estrogen would not be a problem on that dosage.

However, at a high enough dosage T will have to be completely suppressed and estrogen would have to go excessively low, I believe.

Mephistopheles' second plan addresses that issue. The tamoxifen could be started sooner though, say week 7.



Do you mean that running tamoxifen for 4 weeks, from week 7 to 10 would be sufficient for this cycle? Since it is not as suppresive as testosterone, so we don't need wait for the drug to fully clear the system to start PCT. Something like that?

I suppose for some people with "tough" HPTA, running a low-moderate dose of primo for 8 or less weeks without PCT can be doable. say 300-400 for 8 weeks,no frontload. While on cycle, natural T maybe supressed, but still enough for everyday functions. I personally enojoy a period of low supression, as my skin ususally improves, no more acne, no oily skin and non longer distracted by high libido :slight_smile:


Thank you. I will definitely think about this.


not highjacking but im about 3 weeks out from starting a primo/ test depot cycle

week 1 1000mg
week 2-8 600mg
then my version of a stasis taper.

the reason i do this is cause I have got pre existing gyno and any more test and i get bad acne. i would love some turanabol but it seems its seems to have disapeared. Makes me sad i loved that little pill.

Anyone done anything similar to this?


Good advice here so far, just wondering how tall are you?


What does this mean? 1000mg of what? 600mg of what?


1000mg primo
600mg primo

and i forgot but only 200mg test a week


I'm 184cms. (~6feet).


I am still trying to figure this out, downloaded and read a few books, read some online shit, and I still have no idea what and how to run. Any more advice would be appreciated.


can u also get your hands on adex, letro, nolva? just out of curiosity.
personally, anadrol always catches my eye and im biding my time to use it. from what i hear, the gains in strength and size are ridiculous when used right. my next cycle will break down as such:
Wk1-8 test E at 500-750mg/wk E3D
Wk1-4 Anadrol at 100mg ED
Wk1-4 Winstrol at 50mg ED
Wk10-13 Nolva 40/30/20/20

I'm planning adex throughout and will adjust it according to my body and its reaction tot he above chemicals. That's just my personal preference because i have no experience with sus, primo, etc.


I have two theories about you. First, you don't have the brains to read a total of 5 posts second, you are even dumber than I think and you don't understand what you read.


and finally, 400mg/week (once a week injection) of primo + 25mg or proviron every day for 6 weeks, as I have figured out in the last few days this should not shut me down, I should see some gains. I should be balanced and not low on natural test after this, but should I run a tamoxifen PCT anyways?


your natural test will be suppressed after the cycle, but it will be mild compared to a testosterone cycle. But it is still advisable to use a tamoxifen PCT to restore natural production quickly.

Week 1-6 Primobolam depot 2x 200mg injections (more stable), frontload 500mg on day 1
week 1-7 Proviron 25mg/day
Week 7-10 Tamoxifen 20/20/10/10mg daily