Not Content with Being Mr. Average

Bigger Stronger Leaner Beginners
1

Well, this is my first post on T-Nation, and probably one that is long overdue. As both my username and thread title explain, I am your typical average guy. From my average physique, to my average fiancee’ (just joking honey), and my average income, I’m just all round average.

But in the last couple of months I have come to the realisation that I’m not content with just being another ‘Mr. Average’, I want more. I need to change my physique, get ‘fit’ and healthy and finally feel better about myself…I seriously was joking about the missus :wink:

So as of 2 months ago, I started eating ‘healthier’. I said goodbye to Macca’s and just general all round overeating/ eating bad shite. I was 85kg (I’m 177cm tall or 5"9) with most of my excess weight around the mid section (told you I was Mr. Average). So over the last 2 months of eating ‘better’, cutting down calories, eating more protein, and working out (both lifting and cardio), I lost 5kg.

So I’m now roughly 80kg (btw I’m 23) and feeling a little better about my mid section, but I want more. Truth be told, I don’t want to be massive (of course no harm in wanting that, it just isn’t my ‘thing’), but rather, want more bulk but at the same time I want really good definition (yes it sounds corny).

So over the last few days, I have been reading (a lot) from many different authors on T-Nation, and the general consensus is that aerobic exercise (running/swimming etc) negates the benefits of lifting (strength/mass etc ) and vice-versa. Though upon reading ‘Black book of training secrets’ by Christian Thibaudeau, this author/trainer seemed to have some great techniques for maintaining the strength/mass of lifting, whilst obtaining the benefits of high intensity aerobic activity (increased fat loss/endurance). These techniques included 400m sprints, interval running and interval build-up running (i assume the same general techniques could be applied to swimming etc?).

So what this giant rant all boils down to is, can I incorporate these sorts of techniques into a lifting program and hope to reap the benefits of each?

I also need help in building a program to obtain my goals, and generally don’t know where to start, even though I have been reading about all this stuff? I guess I just need a kick up the arse…

Anyway, will be home later tonight, so will have the opportunity to read some comments by the experienced and knowledgeable T-Nation community. Thanks for your time.

Regards, Mr. Average :slight_smile:

2

to answer your first question, you can incorporate CT’s techniques at a seperate part of the day then when you are lifting. As a beginner you will reap all the benefits (weight loss/more muscle) as long as you eat and get enough rest, and of course keep lifting.

As for programs, look at stuff like Starting Strength

or WS4SB. Either program will lead you down the right path.

3

If you want to lift weights and go running, then lift weights and go running. Why WOULDN’T you be able to do all of this?

Just make sure you’re eating a sensible diet that is allowing you to gain bodyweight, and if it were me I’d lift on a 4-way split and run on Saturdays.

4

simple answer = why dont you try it out and see what works for you

since your a “beginner” i guess the simplest advice that i could give you would be to do your cardio (if you do have any cardio yo do) on your non lifting days

5

Fantastic, thank you for the replies.

So as per Phishfood’s post, I’m going to start the ‘Starting Strength’ program. For too long I have avoided deadlifts/squats. partly because my patella has a nasty habit of dislocating and partly because my ego takes a hit when I’m only squating 40kg… :slight_smile:

Can I also ask, now that I have a program to follow, should I use CT’s sprints etc (or another cardio/endurance technique, if anyone has some good ideas) on the same day as my lifts? I was reading ‘New Rules of Lifting’ and they said you will get greater benefits if you do the cardio and lifts in the one session. I guess it might have something to do with not getting enough rest if you are doing lifts 1 day, followed by sprints the next and so on? What are your thoughts on the subject?

Also, are there any good technique videos I can study, don’t want to lose my patella on a deep squat if I’m doing it incorrectly.

Thanks everyone

6

scratches balls

7

[quote]Marlind wrote:
scratches balls[/quote]

On my lift day? :wink:

8

I’m in a similar boat, but I cut my bodyfat right down the wrong way first. Lift and do cardio on different days and you’ll be totally fine - forget about tiny details and put in the effort. Dont worry about the new best way to build muscle with a program, because the best thing you can do right now is just work hard for the next year.

I beast myself so that whenever I start thinking about the way I’m training right now, I drop and do as many push ups as I can without reducing too much of the explosiveness, turn over and do 25 sit ups then do some pull ups until I really have to grind them out. It’s better than mental masterbation.

As far diet, I subscribe to the complex carbs, healthy fats, protein with every meal and no chocolate, sweets, desert [unless I’ve had a workout, done a 9 hour shift where 5 of those hours have been moving cylinders, pulling cages, putting boxes away]. It’s worked good so far.

Hope some of that helps

Good luck

9

Cheers Ben, sounds like we were in the same boat. So it looks like I have my basic plan down, but can anyone help with some lifting technique vids for all the big lifts?

Edit: Once again Phishfood, excellent advice. In regards to the intervals and lifts, and your advice about splitting the session, how long we looking at? 3-4 hours in between? It does sound very taxing, but I’m really psyched about hitting this hard. Now that Uni is basically finished for the year, I have about 3months where time is not an issue.

Btw one my phone, so will check vids when I get home. Thanks heaps for that

10

[quote]Mr Average wrote:
Fantastic, thank you for the replies.

So as per Phishfood’s post, I’m going to start the ‘Starting Strength’ program. For too long I have avoided deadlifts/squats. partly because my patella has a nasty habit of dislocating and partly because my ego takes a hit when I’m only squating 40kg… :slight_smile:

Can I also ask, now that I have a program to follow, should I use CT’s sprints etc (or another cardio/endurance technique, if anyone has some good ideas) on the same day as my lifts? I was reading ‘New Rules of Lifting’ and they said you will get greater benefits if you do the cardio and lifts in the one session. I guess it might have something to do with not getting enough rest if you are doing lifts 1 day, followed by sprints the next and so on? What are your thoughts on the subject?

Also, are there any good technique videos I can study, don’t want to lose my patella on a deep squat if I’m doing it incorrectly.

Thanks everyone

[/quote]

Okay for your cardio question. Starting stregnth program is good and it has days off but doing on cardio on your off day, especailly intervals is not going to happen. Since you are going to be squating and deadlifting the next day you are not going to be able to do sprints so i would focus on steady state cardio on your days in between lifting. On days you lift cardio (ex. intervals) should be done during a different session since they are taxing. Deadlift/squats and intervals in one session would be difficult for anyone.

Dont worry about how much you squat or deadlift. Everyone starts at the bottom. As for your knees, try a wider stance on your squats. Also you dont have to necessarily do back squats. You can do front squats, hack squats, zercher squats, etc. whatever is most comfortable for you. Good form on squats shouldnt hurt your knees.

Video’s:

Article (help with the knee problem as well)

11

Thanks Phishfood.

Ok so today I’m going to the gym as essentially a ‘testing day’, where I’m going practice my technique for all the major lifts associated with the ‘Starting Strength’ program, and get an indication of my starting weights. So now that I have my lifts/interval training schedule good to go, I guess the next (and maybe the most important?) aspect is getting my diet right?

So as described before, I was losing weight (5kg) from the mid section (or at least hoping that’s where it was coming from), by basically counting calories, that’s it. I calculated my DEE and it is now roughly 2000cal. Whereas before I was only counting basic calories (a little book did it all for me), I didn’t have proper breakdowns of Protein/carbs/fat…and thus have been way under in the Protein department, maybe only having 100g a day… (terrible I now know).

I have read the basic nutrition articles by CT, and though they have helped me get a greater understanding of basic body nutrition, I don’t yet feel comfortable with making my own diet. Is there any diet outlines I could follow to get me on the right track (tailored to a very low budget…I’m a Uni student).

Thanks

12

[quote]Mr Average wrote:
Cheers Ben, sounds like we were in the same boat. So it looks like I have my basic plan down, but can anyone help with some lifting technique vids for all the big lifts?

Edit: Once again Phishfood, excellent advice. In regards to the intervals and lifts, and your advice about splitting the session, how long we looking at? 3-4 hours in between? It does sound very taxing, but I’m really psyched about hitting this hard. Now that Uni is basically finished for the year, I have about 3months where time is not an issue.

Btw one my phone, so will check vids when I get home. Thanks heaps for that [/quote]

If time isnt an option i would try to put as much distance between the two as possible. That way you can do one session (intervals or lifting) and then refuel with food during the day and do your second session. There is no set hours or anything. As you do it your body will tell you how much or how little you need to space the two but i would lean towards as much time in between as your schedule allows.

13

[quote]Mr Average wrote:
Thanks Phishfood.

Ok so today I’m going to the gym as essentially a ‘testing day’, where I’m going practice my technique for all the major lifts associated with the ‘Starting Strength’ program, and get an indication of my starting weights. So now that I have my lifts/interval training schedule good to go, I guess the next (and maybe the most important?) aspect is getting my diet right?

So as described before, I was losing weight (5kg) from the mid section (or at least hoping that’s where it was coming from), by basically counting calories, that’s it. I calculated my DEE and it is now roughly 2000cal. Whereas before I was only counting basic calories (a little book did it all for me), I didn’t have proper breakdowns of Protein/carbs/fat…and thus have been way under in the Protein department, maybe only having 100g a day… (terrible I now know).

I have read the basic nutrition articles by CT, and though they have helped me get a greater understanding of basic body nutrition, I don’t yet feel comfortable with making my own diet. Is there any diet outlines I could follow to get me on the right track (tailored to a very low budget…I’m a Uni student).

Thanks [/quote]

check some of this stuff out.

Just remember to keep your protein intake high. At least 1.5 grams per pound. Since you have experience counting calories you will have no problems monitering your macronutrients.

14

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
Mr Average wrote:
Thanks Phishfood.

Ok so today I’m going to the gym as essentially a ‘testing day’, where I’m going practice my technique for all the major lifts associated with the ‘Starting Strength’ program, and get an indication of my starting weights. So now that I have my lifts/interval training schedule good to go, I guess the next (and maybe the most important?) aspect is getting my diet right?

So as described before, I was losing weight (5kg) from the mid section (or at least hoping that’s where it was coming from), by basically counting calories, that’s it. I calculated my DEE and it is now roughly 2000cal. Whereas before I was only counting basic calories (a little book did it all for me), I didn’t have proper breakdowns of Protein/carbs/fat…and thus have been way under in the Protein department, maybe only having 100g a day… (terrible I now know).

I have read the basic nutrition articles by CT, and though they have helped me get a greater understanding of basic body nutrition, I don’t yet feel comfortable with making my own diet. Is there any diet outlines I could follow to get me on the right track (tailored to a very low budget…I’m a Uni student).

Thanks

check some of this stuff out.

Just remember to keep your protein intake high. At least 1.5 grams per pound. Since you have experience counting calories you will have no problems monitering your macronutrients.

[/quote]

Once again Phishfood, you come through with the goods. Very interesting read, I can’t believe how much I was starving my body of protein…

Any chance of going one step further and pointing me in the direction of genuine eating plans ppl use around here, like weekly eating schedules? I would certainly benefit from seeing a plan all laid out, especially for variety purposes.

In regards to Supplements, taking into account a VERY limited budget, what are the essentials? I am currently taking protein powder (don’t really know if it’s any good) and standard fish-oil tablets (increased to 9 caps daily, as recommended here). So basically essential sups on a shoe-string budget. I have noticed that protein powder could be a viable substitute for a meat product if I can’t afford to buy too much meat?

15

[quote]Mr Average wrote:
phishfood1128 wrote:
Mr Average wrote:
Thanks Phishfood.

Ok so today I’m going to the gym as essentially a ‘testing day’, where I’m going practice my technique for all the major lifts associated with the ‘Starting Strength’ program, and get an indication of my starting weights. So now that I have my lifts/interval training schedule good to go, I guess the next (and maybe the most important?) aspect is getting my diet right?

So as described before, I was losing weight (5kg) from the mid section (or at least hoping that’s where it was coming from), by basically counting calories, that’s it. I calculated my DEE and it is now roughly 2000cal. Whereas before I was only counting basic calories (a little book did it all for me), I didn’t have proper breakdowns of Protein/carbs/fat…and thus have been way under in the Protein department, maybe only having 100g a day… (terrible I now know).

I have read the basic nutrition articles by CT, and though they have helped me get a greater understanding of basic body nutrition, I don’t yet feel comfortable with making my own diet. Is there any diet outlines I could follow to get me on the right track (tailored to a very low budget…I’m a Uni student).

Thanks

check some of this stuff out.

Just remember to keep your protein intake high. At least 1.5 grams per pound. Since you have experience counting calories you will have no problems monitering your macronutrients.

Once again Phishfood, you come through with the goods. Very interesting read, I can’t believe how much I was starving my body of protein…

Any chance of going one step further and pointing me in the direction of genuine eating plans ppl use around here, like weekly eating schedules? I would certainly benefit from seeing a plan all laid out, especially for variety purposes.

In regards to Supplements, taking into account a VERY limited budget, what are the essentials? I am currently taking protein powder (don’t really know if it’s any good) and standard fish-oil tablets (increased to 9 caps daily, as recommended here). So basically essential sups on a shoe-string budget. I have noticed that protein powder could be a viable substitute for a meat product if I can’t afford to buy too much meat?
[/quote]

I dont really have meal plans that i can point you to. Personally i wouldnt recommed a meal plan of someone to dictate what you eat. What is going to work for you might not work for someone else and vice versa for a variety of factors (financial circumstances, carb sensitivity, etc.). I think it would be better for you to just write down everything you eat in a day and then we can analyze and tweak it for your needs and goals.

As for supplements i think you are on track. Personally I am not a big supplement guy. I even stopped taking protein shakes but that for financial reasons and I am still making gains. Fish oil and protein powder are all you really need. Protein shakes are great but try to get as much solid food as you can. Things like tuna and eggs are relatively inexpensive over here.

16

Average, check out this article. At the very bottom is a sample day for someone looking to consume 5,000 calories.

17

Ok, well I just got back from the ‘test session’ in which I was just trying to get a feel for the technique and weight of the major lifts involved in ‘Starting Strength’.

As suspected my lower body is a disaster… All these lift weights are written NOT including the the Olympic Bar (20kg), just so I can get an accurate idea of progress.

Squat (60kg)
Deadlift (20kg)
PowerClean (20kg)
Benchpress (65kg) was happy with that

Ok so I had an issue with the powerclean related to my wrist. When trying to clean it, it felt as if my wrist could have nearly dislocated as I was rapidly accelerating, really turned me off them, and interfered with my deadlifts. I wouldn’t exactly call it pain, more of a strange sensation which feels a little sore afterwards. Any idea’s?

Overall as I expected, lower body is disgraceful…

18

[quote]Mr Average wrote:
Ok, well I just got back from the ‘test session’ in which I was just trying to get a feel for the technique and weight of the major lifts involved in ‘Starting Strength’.

As suspected my lower body is a disaster… All these lift weights are written NOT including the the Olympic Bar (20kg), just so I can get an accurate idea of progress.

Squat (60kg)
Deadlift (20kg)
PowerClean (20kg)
Benchpress (65kg) was happy with that

Ok so I had an issue with the powerclean related to my wrist. When trying to clean it, it felt as if my wrist could have nearly dislocated as I was rapidly accelerating, really turned me off them, and interfered with my deadlifts. I wouldn’t exactly call it pain, more of a strange sensation which feels a little sore afterwards. Any idea’s?

Overall as I expected, lower body is disgraceful…[/quote]

Its probably a wrist felxability issue that will improve as you work on the power clean.

You could also go over to the powerlifting forum and ask those guys for help about the wrist. DOnt worry about your lower body. Leg strength develops pretty fast if you follow the basic rules of eating and enough sleep.

19

[quote]Mr Average wrote:
Ok, well I just got back from the ‘test session’ in which I was just trying to get a feel for the technique and weight of the major lifts involved in ‘Starting Strength’.

As suspected my lower body is a disaster… All these lift weights are written NOT including the the Olympic Bar (20kg), just so I can get an accurate idea of progress.

Squat (60kg)
Deadlift (20kg)
PowerClean (20kg)
Benchpress (65kg) was happy with that

Ok so I had an issue with the powerclean related to my wrist. When trying to clean it, it felt as if my wrist could have nearly dislocated as I was rapidly accelerating, really turned me off them, and interfered with my deadlifts. I wouldn’t exactly call it pain, more of a strange sensation which feels a little sore afterwards. Any idea’s?

Overall as I expected, lower body is disgraceful…[/quote]

I honestly would rather see some one start on a upper/lower body routine. like mentioned before (WS4SB). Unless you have a mentor or helpful people at your gym to critique your form when performing squats/deadlifts/. Squatting, deadlifting 3 times a week whether real intense or not is real freakin’ draining… Especially if not done right (dont learn decent technique, use wrong weight, don’t sleep/eat enough etc etc…)

I started on Starting Strength my first year, yet found an Upper/Lower split to be a lot better overall. Just my two cents.

20

[quote]Carlitosway wrote:
Mr Average wrote:
Ok, well I just got back from the ‘test session’ in which I was just trying to get a feel for the technique and weight of the major lifts involved in ‘Starting Strength’.

As suspected my lower body is a disaster… All these lift weights are written NOT including the the Olympic Bar (20kg), just so I can get an accurate idea of progress.

Squat (60kg)
Deadlift (20kg)
PowerClean (20kg)
Benchpress (65kg) was happy with that

Ok so I had an issue with the powerclean related to my wrist. When trying to clean it, it felt as if my wrist could have nearly dislocated as I was rapidly accelerating, really turned me off them, and interfered with my deadlifts. I wouldn’t exactly call it pain, more of a strange sensation which feels a little sore afterwards. Any idea’s?

Overall as I expected, lower body is disgraceful…

I honestly would rather see some one start on a upper/lower body routine. like mentioned before (WS4SB). Unless you have a mentor or helpful people at your gym to critique your form when performing squats/deadlifts/. Squatting, deadlifting 3 times a week whether real intense or not is real freakin’ draining… Especially if not done right (dont learn decent technique, use wrong weight, don’t sleep/eat enough etc etc…)

I started on Starting Strength my first year, yet found an Upper/Lower split to be a lot better overall. Just my two cents.[/quote]

Very good point. You could squat/dead/clean all you want but if you dont get the technique down with help from others you might be wasting time. Big and experienced guys (who look the part) are a great resource. I still always ask the powerlifters in my gym to critique my squat every now and then. I simply offered Starting Strength because it worked well for me until I switched to a split. I never did WS4SB/upper lower split. Its good to give the OP a second opinion.