T Nation

$ Not an Issue Which Supplements?


Ok looking at the shop and the sheer amount of products available its pretty difficult to know whether some of them clash.

Like Spike says "Do not take with any other stimulant or weight-loss supplement."

Does that mean dont combine it with HOT-ROX, RED KAT, Power Drive?

So for a standard muscle gain programn which supplmements would you go for?
I was thinking

  • Spike
  • Alpha Male
  • Carbolin 19
  • Methoxy-7
  • ZMA
  • Surge
  • Metabolic Drive
    and of course
  • Sensible eating plan
  • Sesnsible workout plan

Any product shat can or should be added/taken of fro that list?

than you


If you've never used any of these products you're getting a bit carried away.

Why not just start with Biotest Surge and Metabolic Drive at least a few weeks before adding Carbolin 19?

By starting them all at once you won't know which effects you're getting from which products.

The goal isn't to use as many supplements as possible, but rather to use as few supplements as possible.


  1. Eating Habits
  2. Meal Plans
  3. Workout Plan
  4. Surge
  5. Metabolic Drive


First of all, did you just list every single Biotest product and want to stack them all in one go??

Secondly, if you are new to supps, like the others suggested first work on getting all the other stuff sorted (training, diet, sleep etc.).

Then move onto the basics. I am purposefully mentioning supplement types and not specific Biotest products. As good as they are, most of them are for the intermediate/advanced supplement user so it may be worth your while to hang on before using them. Start with a good multivitamin, EFA/fish/flax oils, protein supplementation.

Then I would move onto basic supps which have almost become a staple: creatine for example. I would then progress to nootropics/energy supps, and then finally if you need, hormone-related supps (of which there are many subcategories).



What reconbyfire said. Take all that money, spend it on food and get your eating straight first. This will do more for you than any supplement. If everything you listed was more important than food and a good plan, they would be called necessities not supplements.

Spend $100 or so you have set aside for supps and buy Berardi's Precision Nutrition. You'll be much better off.


Im not new to training.

I'm very very strict on my diet and I follow alot of advice on this site such as:
- Cycling carbs
- Eating card meals only for breakfast and after workouts
- Making sure I get enough vitamins/fats/fish oils/omegas etc.

What I meant was if you had the right food each day and a good workout routine and you did't have to hold back on supplements due to cash.

Which ones would you take? Which ones do find un-neccesary not because you cant afford them but because you dont need them.

For lean mass muscle gain.


I would first

  1. Get a good solid workout plan in first that sticks to the basics like bench, pullups, deads, squats, etc. Do that for a month or two.

  2. Then start eating reasonably clean. 4 good meals a day and a snack or two in between. Lean protein good carbs fruit and veggie. Do these two for another month

  3. Then add in Metabolic Drive.

  4. Then later add in fish oil caps and ZMA


As I mentioned above, it is not to do with being new to training, but new to supplements. My progression would be:

multivit -> efa/fishoil -> protein -> creatine -> recovery -> basic nootropic/energy (eg. Power Drive) -> advanced nootropics (eg. Spike) -> hormone related supps.


IMO - Surge did not do much for me. But there's a lot of folks on here saying it does. Worth a try. Can't hurt.

Spike is a great product. Metabolic Drive is a great product.

I've tried the Alpha Male and the RED KAT. The RED KAT, to me, was just as good at half the price.

I also agree with a good multiV and Fish oil caps.

Other than that maybe some creatine. MAYBE. But I would get my lifting and nutrition in order first. That will be 98% of your battle. Supplements supplement.


Don't waste your money on a multi-vitamin. I've never seen one make a difference for anyone.

Go with Biotest Surge and Metabolic Drive (if you're not getting enough protein from whole food). The add Alpha Male or Carbolin 19.

Spike, Power Drive, and ZMA could be used at any time


You could've just said 'buy everything Biotest makes'


I know lost of well informed people that take multi's (Cy wilson included)

Look for one without iron, and cut in in half and take either half a day or at seperate times.


I was covering the products that the original poster listed.

I typically don't like to take that many supplements together. I do, however, feel that these are all quality products.

Do you have a problem with them?


To answer the posters questions...

Spike and HOT-ROX should NOT be taken together, as they both has vasodilator effects and could potentially be dangerous, though anecdotally this is not the case. I think RED KAT is in the same boat. Methoxy-7 is fair game I believe.

Surge and Metabolic Drive are basically food. I don't even consider them supps. They are just another source of calories on your list.


No I have problem with your recommendation not to buy a multivitamin. For someone who claimed to be highly educated and qualified in this field, please explain why this study contradicted your statement:


"CONCLUSIONS: Supplementation with a multivitamin formulated at about 100% Daily Value can decrease the prevalence of suboptimal vitamin status in older adults and improve their micronutrient status to levels associated with reduced risk for several chronic diseases."


Hey, I believe a multi-vitamin/mineral formulation is great for elderly adults with substandard nutrition, which is the population used in this study, but I don't see the relevance to those following the nutritional advise given here.

Besides, your supposed to be a smart guy, so you should know that any one study doesn't serve of proof for anything. Someone willing to take the time can find studys that refute just about all sound nutritional advise.

Then again, I don't disagree that my grandma should take a daily Centrum.


Do we see a contradiction here? What is your true opinion: do multivitamins benefit some people (dieting down, crappy diet, elderly people) or as your first quote implied, it does not make a difference to ANYONE?

Funny you mentioned ZMA because its designed mainly for people who are deficient in Zinc etc (good sleep aid as well, if you want to be anal)... So does a multivitamin not help with people who are deficient in various nutrients?

Typical "science can't prove everything" arguement.

This is a good article on multivitamins
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamins.html from the Harvard School of Public Health. Unlike your opinion, the artcle is fully referenced.