Hi All,
I’m trying to put together some research to take to the doctors and I want to head off the potential ‘270’ is within the ‘normal range’ for a 32 year old male. Does anyone have any links to studies that would be helpful here. I’ve been searching and I’ve read something about more test being better, but not really anything to do with ranges.
Thanks,
Low T is strongly associated with:
depression and/or apathy - which TRT can reverse to some extent
short tempered and social withdrawal - which TRT can reverse to some extent
increased total cholesterol - which TRT can reverse to some extent
Insulin resistance - which TRT can reverse to some extent
loss of muscle - which TRT can …
gain of fat - which …
ED - which - which …
thin and weakened skin, brittle nails - which …
endothelial dysfunction - which …
decreased work performance with risk of job loss or lost opportunities - which …
Loss of activity - which …
increased risks of heart attack, strokes and lower survival rates after the event
There are normal ranges and there are healthy ranges. It really depends on your biological set point and factors that make testosterone more functional to the body with out symptoms. I have patients that are 450-500 and have no symptoms can perform like porn stars and are very strong and muscular. Even when my T was 350 I was benching over 400 for reps.
270 is defintely low but i explore the reason why it could be low and then work from their to resolve the cause then rather treat the symptom right off the bat. I had patients that had total T of 250, but I asked them at the time where they fighting a cold at the time. If you are not well testosterone can drop by 50% easily. Also hidden infections, cortisol, thyroid imbalance, nutritoinal imbalance, psychological and emotional stress can all alter testosterone levels, but what dr takes the time to look at the entire pics?
Majority of them just stick you on 5 mgs of androgel and send you on your way for 3 months resulting in you feel good for 2 weeks then crashing because your own natural production turns off dropping levels lower then when you start. Depression, anxiety, fatigue sets in then 3 months later he offers you an antidepressant. I see this on a daily basis with guys as well as my self this occured, but I told the Dr to shove it up his ass.
The reason I chose to go the TRT route with a level of 305 is that at 34 years old, I’m that low before any of the real age related decline sets in, so I figured if I will be doing it eventually, why not feel better now.
And I do. It hasnt been easy to get settled, but i’ve never lost faith in what it can make possible.
My very qualified doc doesn’t like seeing anyone below 400 and most docs who know what they’re doing DO believe that there’s a problem with anything less than 300 and will treat symptoms, not just the problem of having disease.
High normal is healthier than low normal, as most docs who know what they’re doing will tell you.
If you go to a competent doc, there’s not much need to convince him with research as s/he’ll already have done enough research on his/her own.
My doc keeps me at 700 to 1000, where I feel best.
Hardasnails: You make no sense, as people who are hypgonadal are “shut down” in the first place! Why else would they seek medical treatment and be diagnosed with being “shut down” (hypogonadism).
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
There are normal ranges and there are healthy ranges. It really depends on your biological set point and factors that make testosterone more functional to the body with out symptoms. I have patients that are 450-500 and have no symptoms can perform like porn stars and are very strong and muscular. Even when my T was 350 I was benching over 400 for reps. [/quote]
I don’t really know what my ‘normal’ range is. I know I have some of the symptoms of Low T. I got tested (started a thread) in April regarding it. I got retested a month later (roughly) and it was still low. The urologist I saw just said I was within range. When I initially went in, my GP wrote a script for T. It was only after I freaked out a bit (my bad) that she sent me to a urologist.
That said, I’ve contacted a compounding pharmacy and the person said to lose more weight (which I have) and then to maintain the weight (which I have). My symptoms haven’t changed. The purpose of this thread is to be prepared when I go to my GP.
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
270 is defintely low but i explore the reason why it could be low and then work from their to resolve the cause then rather treat the symptom right off the bat. I had patients that had total T of 250, but I asked them at the time where they fighting a cold at the time. If you are not well testosterone can drop by 50% easily. Also hidden infections, cortisol, thyroid imbalance, nutritoinal imbalance, psychological and emotional stress can all alter testosterone levels, but what dr takes the time to look at the entire pics? [/quote]
I agree with you - I’ve actually printed out a list of possibilities (crossing through the ones that definitely aren’t the case) for further tests with my GP.
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
Majority of them just stick you on 5 mgs of androgel and send you on your way for 3 months resulting in you feel good for 2 weeks then crashing because your own natural production turns off dropping levels lower then when you start. Depression, anxiety, fatigue sets in then 3 months later he offers you an antidepressant. I see this on a daily basis with guys as well as my self this occured, but I told the Dr to shove it up his ass. [/quote]
That stinks and is something I want to avoid.
270 is right around where my levels were. I feel great on T, and horrible off it. Insulin and cortisol can oppose testosterone in the body - and like hardasnails said infection can lower T. I feel like death off of testosterone and there is no question in my mind you will age faster with Low T than without it because there is less resistance to stress.
Low testosterone has also been linked to an increased risk of alzheimers and osteoporosis in men.
[quote]Pangloss wrote:
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
There are normal ranges and there are healthy ranges. It really depends on your biological set point and factors that make testosterone more functional to the body with out symptoms. I have patients that are 450-500 and have no symptoms can perform like porn stars and are very strong and muscular. Even when my T was 350 I was benching over 400 for reps. [/quote]
I don’t really know what my ‘normal’ range is. I know I have some of the symptoms of Low T. I got tested (started a thread) in April regarding it. I got retested a month later (roughly) and it was still low. The urologist I saw just said I was within range. When I initially went in, my GP wrote a script for T. It was only after I freaked out a bit (my bad) that she sent me to a urologist.
That said, I’ve contacted a compounding pharmacy and the person said to lose more weight (which I have) and then to maintain the weight (which I have). My symptoms haven’t changed. The purpose of this thread is to be prepared when I go to my GP.
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
270 is defintely low but i explore the reason why it could be low and then work from their to resolve the cause then rather treat the symptom right off the bat. I had patients that had total T of 250, but I asked them at the time where they fighting a cold at the time. If you are not well testosterone can drop by 50% easily. Also hidden infections, cortisol, thyroid imbalance, nutritoinal imbalance, psychological and emotional stress can all alter testosterone levels, but what dr takes the time to look at the entire pics? [/quote]
I agree with you - I’ve actually printed out a list of possibilities (crossing through the ones that definitely aren’t the case) for further tests with my GP.
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
Majority of them just stick you on 5 mgs of androgel and send you on your way for 3 months resulting in you feel good for 2 weeks then crashing because your own natural production turns off dropping levels lower then when you start. Depression, anxiety, fatigue sets in then 3 months later he offers you an antidepressant. I see this on a daily basis with guys as well as my self this occured, but I told the Dr to shove it up his ass. [/quote]
That stinks and is something I want to avoid.
[/quote]
Did you get your LH, FSH, estradiol, and prolactin levels checked? Did you get an MRI of the pituitary? I’m assuming you don’t have testicular injury because otherwise you probably would have exposed that here.
Elevated estradiol and prolactin can cause problems. So can diabetes.
If your LH and FSH are high and you have low test, you probably have primary hypogonadism.
If your LH and FSH are low or low normal (can be idiopathic or caused by known damage to the pituitary), you probably have secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism.
I emphasize the word MIGHT because I’m not a doctor, just a patient with idiopathic secondary hypogonadism who happens to have a damn good doctor!
Androgel works in more than enough (not all) men, inculding myself, so don’t dismiss it immediately. There are several options: Testopel, Androgel, Testim, and T injections.
Losing some weight doesn’t reverse real problems with testicular or pituitary function.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Did you get your LH, FSH, estradiol, and prolactin levels checked? Did you get an MRI of the pituitary? I’m assuming you don’t have testicular injury because otherwise you probably would have exposed that here. [/quote]
I’ve gotten some of that done:
Component Your result Standard range Units
FSH 3.0 (1.6 - 11.0 MIU/ML)
LH 3.2 (1.7 - 8.6 MIU/ML)
PROLACTIN 6.78 (0.47 - 18.0 NG/ML)
(No pituitary test or estradiol test)
As to injuries, not really. I got hit in the ‘boys’ by a line drive when I was 18ish. There wasn’t any bruising or anything.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Elevated estradiol and prolactin can cause problems. So can diabetes. [/quote]
At one point I was a ‘risk’ for diabetes. I lost the weight. All the test results I’m posting now are AFTER the doctor told me I was a risk (test results are April - May of this year).
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
If your LH and FSH are high and you have low test, you probably have primary hypogonadism. [/quote]
I don’t think my LH/FSH are high.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
If your LH and FSH are low or low normal (can be idiopathic or caused by known damage to the pituitary), you probably have secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism. [/quote]
What’s considered ‘low’?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I emphasize the word MIGHT because I’m not a doctor, just a patient with idiopathic secondary hypogonadism who happens to have a damn good doctor! [/quote]
No problem - I completely understand that. No one can be completely accurate over an internet diagnosis. 
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Androgel works in more than enough (not all) men, inculding myself, so don’t dismiss it immediately. There are several options: Testopel, Androgel, Testim, and T injections.
Losing some weight doesn’t reverse real problems with testicular or pituitary function. [/quote]
My concern is that I over trained (I’ve cut back drastically). I just took a saliva test (home kit) that I ordered. Do you think this will show accurate results?
All I know is my doc doesn’t do saliva test and I don’t know much about them at all. I don’t know how they can be more accurate than a blood test.
What’s considered low? Dude, you have your ranges posted right there. Read them. They are LOW NORMAL, and your T is ABNORMALLY LOW (<300). So you MIGHT have secondary hypogonadism.
A good website to start looking for a doctor is www.impotencespecialists.org. You’d be best to find a urologist that specializes in andrology (ED, fertility, TRT).
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
All I know is my doc doesn’t do saliva test and I don’t know much about them at all. I don’t know how they can be more accurate than a blood test. [/quote]
My doctor doesn’t do them either - this is a test I ordered from somewhere else.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
What’s considered low? Dude, you have your ranges posted right there. Read them. They are LOW NORMAL, and your T is ABNORMALLY LOW (<300). So you MIGHT have secondary hypogonadism. [/quote]
Yes, I realize that the ranges are there - but I was curious since most consider 300 low T, when it’s part of the range (the low side). Granted my T is abnormally low, I thought maybe that if one of those two were on the low side it might indicate something.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
A good website to start looking for a doctor is www.impotencespecialists.org. You’d be best to find a urologist that specializes in andrology (ED, fertility, TRT). [/quote]
Thanks,
Natural T set point: This is why I ask about acne history, facial hair, body hair, hair loss, height, weight, waist when growth started, when stopped and if slow and steady. If quite tall and little facial/body hair, a guy is tall because estrogens were low and low T leads to less hair, less of a rugged male facial bone structure and low T leads to less E. Less E means less fat and less aromatase. That profile is extreme in terms of spectrum, but not unusual. Then there are guys who started shaving when they were 14, short, stocky and hairy - high T types. These things can provide clues about where ones T levels were. Their high T levels lead to higher E levels that shutdown bone growth early.
[Same similar things can be used as clues to a women’s past estrogen levels. And her history of PMS, breast pains and other cycle details can be indicative of her past and current progesterone levels. Women loose progesterone levels in roughly the manner that we all loose DHEA levels.] We need to keep our women healthy too.
Pangloss wrote: “Yes, I realize that the ranges are there - but I was curious since most consider 300 low T, when it’s part of the range (the low side). Granted my T is abnormally low, I thought maybe that if one of those two were on the low side it might indicate something.”
Look at what I posted. I wrote if LH and FSH are abnormally low or low normal and T is abnormal, something can be indicated (probably secondary hypogonadism. As I wrote before, your T is abnormally low, and your FSH and LH are low normal. I’m not a doc, but I’m betting if you saw a competent doc, you’d get diagnosed with hypogonadotrophic (secondary) hypogonadism.
Get to a good doctor SOON.
You’re welcome.
[quote]NeelyDan wrote:
The reason I chose to go the TRT route with a level of 305 is that at 34 years old, I’m that low before any of the real age related decline sets in, so I figured if I will be doing it eventually, why not feel better now.
And I do. It hasnt been easy to get settled, but i’ve never lost faith in what it can make possible.[/quote]
That’s a good move!
I felt DESTROYED at 240 to 300!
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
My very qualified doc doesn’t like seeing anyone below 400 and most docs who know what they’re doing DO believe that there’s a problem with anything less than 300 and will treat symptoms, not just the problem of having disease.
High normal is healthier than low normal, as most docs who know what they’re doing will tell you.
If you go to a competent doc, there’s not much need to convince him with research as s/he’ll already have done enough research on his/her own.
My doc keeps me at 700 to 1000, where I feel best.
Hardasnails: You make no sense, as people who are hypgonadal are “shut down” in the first place! Why else would they seek medical treatment and be diagnosed with being “shut down” (hypogonadism). [/quote]
Being shut down meaning primary or secondary?
When examing the cause of why there was a shut down is idenified then it could be dealt with.
It really depends on the age of the person to whether TRT is really needed. Less then <31-33 age then I go after the cause to why there levels are low and 90% of the time I find it which can be medically validated. As many have noted here we have helped they avoided TRT by examing the cause. One is shut down because of something causing manfuncting HPTA (hidden stressors), or down regulated androgen receptors, lack of proper building blocks.
[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
My very qualified doc doesn’t like seeing anyone below 400 and most docs who know what they’re doing DO believe that there’s a problem with anything less than 300 and will treat symptoms, not just the problem of having disease.
High normal is healthier than low normal, as most docs who know what they’re doing will tell you.
If you go to a competent doc, there’s not much need to convince him with research as s/he’ll already have done enough research on his/her own.
My doc keeps me at 700 to 1000, where I feel best.
Hardasnails: You make no sense, as people who are hypgonadal are “shut down” in the first place! Why else would they seek medical treatment and be diagnosed with being “shut down” (hypogonadism). [/quote]
Being shut down meaning primary or secondary?
When examing the cause of why there was a shut down is idenified then it could be dealt with.
It really depends on the age of the person to whether TRT is really needed. Less then <31-33 age then I go after the cause to why there levels are low and 90% of the time I find it which can be medically validated. As many have noted here we have helped they avoided TRT by examing the cause. One is shut down because of something causing manfuncting HPTA (hidden stressors), or down regulated androgen receptors, lack of proper building blocks. [/quote]
I’ve been on TRT for eight years and I’m 31 years old now. My hypogonadism is idiopathic (which I’m sure you know means no known cause). I never had a pituitary tumor (had an MRI) or damage, nor did I have problems with thyroid, prolactin, or estradiol.
But my LH and FSH were abnormally low and my T was 240. HALF a tab of clomid (what I took for a month before Androgel) brought my T value from 240 to 790.
I don’t know what Hardasnails means in speaking of shut down. He says people’s normal T values plummet when they go on TRT, when in fact those who need TRT have abnormally low T in the first place!
My hypogonadism is secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadoptrophic). The word “secondary” in this case meaning abnormal pituitary function. “Primary” hypogonadism refers to that caused by testicular dysfunction or damage or injury, which I’m sure you already know.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Look at what I posted. I wrote if LH and FSH are abnormally low or low normal and T is abnormal, something can be indicated (probably secondary hypogonadism. As I wrote before, your T is abnormally low, and your FSH and LH are low normal. I’m not a doc, but I’m betting if you saw a competent doc, you’d get diagnosed with hypogonadotrophic (secondary) hypogonadism.
Get to a good doctor SOON.
You’re welcome. [/quote]
Fair enough - I guess I’m just trying to interpret results and grasp onto any reason at all. I do plan on going to the doctor soon, I’m just trying to be prepared. I’ve actually printed out a lot of stuff that I intend to take with me to the doctor. Including a combination of ‘questions’ from a KSman thread and the Mayo clinic (such as, ‘had the mumps’, late puberty, etc).
Thanks everyone for the help.