T Nation

Non-Lifting Diet

My current schedule looks like this, for lifting days:

Wake up at 5:30. Have 1/2 scoop ON Whey w/ 6oz milk. Walk my dog.

7am - 4 Egg whites, 1 yolk., 10oz. milk, 6oz V8, 1 serving NOW Liver powder, multi-vitamin, fish oil.

9:45am - 2oz chicken, 1 C Spinach, 1 T. Olive Oil

12:30pm - 4oz chicken, 1 C Green beans

3:30pm - 1 Can Tuna, 1/2 C Kidney Beans

5:30pm - 1 Scoop whey, 1 serving creatine

LIFT

7:00pm - 1 Scoop whey, 1 serving creatine, 10oz. milk, 1/2 C oats

8:30pm - Dinner (varies)

10:00pm - 1 C Cottage cheese, 1/4 C Almonds

All my milk/cottage cheese is fat-free. Dinner is the one meal I really get to eat with my wife, so it’s something I’m not willing to make very strict.

I’m currently lifting 3 times per week, doing the 5x5 program. Heading into the summer, I like the ability it leaves me with, to do house maintenance, yard work, etc.

Also, on my weekday when I don’t lift, I try to fit in some cardio usually, even if it’s just a little.

Currently I’m at about 220lbs. I’m looking to add more muscle. I’ve taken some time off this year, as I’ve had some family things happen, and then recently went on vacation…so I’m looking to get my lifts to new highs.

My question is, should I follow this diet on my non-lifting days as well - or should I do something different. Prior to this I was eating around 2,220 kcal with low carbs to cut (first time carb-managing) and saw decent results.

I’ve formed this diet based on recent threads I’ve seen by Tampa Terry, so hopefully I’m not too far off.

Thanks.

Um yes youd essentially leave all the same keep total intake high if adding mass and just maybe change our Peri w/o nutrition you dont really need all the carbs etc there with no w/o and could go with some healthy fats and veggies with protein

Phill

Hey, there, franchise95p!!! Long time, no speak. (grin)

You’ve got some very nice structure to your plan. Depending on what you were doing before, it might be just the ticket. The way you evaluate your plan is to pick a start date and weigh and measure. Then weigh and measure at the same time (same day of the week, too, obviously) and record your results. If you’re making slow and steady progress towards your goals, you stick with what you’re doing. If you’re trying to bulk and the scale doesn’t go up one week, then increase calories by 250 calories per day.

Along with the structure being very well done, your food choices are excellent, too, One of my “rules” or guiding philosophies is “variety, variety, variety.” I see whey protein three times and chicken twice. If you eat 8 or 9 different snack-sized meals in a day’s time, try to consume 8 or 9 different protein sources. Give some consideration to:

turkey
lean ground beef
shrimp
tilapia
canned sockeye salmon (high in EFAs!!!)
lamb
pork

Heck, you could even have a pot roast or a steak. Unless you have something against it, red meat is highly complementary to your overall goals.

I see you’ve got your PWO nutrition. That gets a gold star! (grin) What you do on your PWO meal is consume starchy carbs in a 2:1 ratio with protein. Let’s treat the scoop of why before and after lifting as one meal. So if you’re eating 8 meals per day, your per-meal protein requirements are 27.5g per meal, and your starchy carb requirements in your whole-food PWO meal are +55g, so go with at least one cup (dry measure) of oatmeal. Here’s a link to nutritiondata.com. http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Pl.html

I see you have your serving of beans and you’re getting some green veggies! Another gold star!!! (grin) Along those lines I’d recommend that you consume a serving of fruit or a green veggie at every meal. Fruit would be a good thing to add to your first meal of the day and your PWO meal, as a minimum.

The milk is a good addition to your diet. It will help you get some much needed calories. In your PWO drink I’d recommend a pint of chocolate milk or Surge. Milk should be consumed in the first half of the day or following your workout.

If you’re not seeing the results you want when you weigh in and measure each week, I’d recommend the inclusion of more starchy carbs in the meals in the first half of your day and an increase in your PWO starchy carbs, too. Starchy carbs are, of course, oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, whole wheat pasta (how 'bout some spaghetti? (grin)) Try rotating between your starchy carbs. Remember that “variety, variety, variety” thing? (grin)

The only other thing I’d like to see you include into your diet is some good fat. At 220 pounds you need 88g of fat per day. Of that 88g, you should consume 2 tablespoons (28g) of olive oil per day. You can use it for cooking or in a salad. You should also consume 2 tablespoons (28g) of flaxseed oil and/or fish oil. Flaxseed oil should not be cooked with. Add it to your food after it’s done cooking, and make sure you refrigerate it.

Take a look at each of your meals to make sure you’re getting at least 27g of protein per meal (a little less in the meals before and after lifting), and that should do it.

Be sure to let us know how it goes. I’ve marked your thread, so if you report in each I’ll help you tweak and adjust along the way if you have problems.

Good job, franchise95p!!! Let me know if you have any other questions.

Wow…thanks for the awesome advice. I will definitely take the advice into consideration.

As for the variance in protein sources, that’s usually where dinner comes in. My wife & I are big into full, healthy dinners - steak & baked potato, chicken & pasta, talapia & rice, as well as a veggie, so that shouldn’t be a problem.

I’ll double my oatmeal intake to 1 cup, post workout.

As for the fruit with breakfast, I thought I was getting that kinda with the V8 drink. I could add some pineapple in there, I suppose.

Another reason for the lack of variance in my diet is that my wife & I are on a kind of strict budget. We just bought a new car & are going to put in a second bathroom soon, so I’m trying to stick to the cheaper end of things, ie cans of tuna, Costco chicken breasts, etc.

The only scale I really have access to is at the gym, so I’ll be using that, probably Monday post-work out. I’ll post weight & measurements then.

What specifically should I measure?

V8 isn’t bad, but they do have to heat it (pasteurize it) to prevent bacterial growth. Heating it kills all the enzymes. Drink it if you want, but don’t skip the fruit.

Measurements:

  • Right Arm (left side is okay, too)
  • Chest
  • Waist
  • Butt
  • Right Thight
  • Right Calf

Inches lost tell a lot!!! (grin)

It’s actually a good plan, franchise95p. Incorporate as much of what I recommend as you can and just see how it goes. You don’t have to be perfect to get some very nice results. If your progress isn’t quite what you want it to be, then you can always tighten up a bit more down the road.

OK, so I took your advice for lifting days, and my plan looks like the following:

-1/2 Serving Whey, 6oz. milk
-4 egg whites, 1 egg yolk, 1 piece of fruit, 10oz. Milk, 1 serving fish oil, 6oz. V8, 1 serving liver powder, multi-vitamin.
-2oz. chicken, 1 C spinach, 1 T Olive Oil
-4oz. chicken, 1 C Green beans
-1 Can Tuna, 1/2 C Kidney Beans
-1 Serving Whey, 1 Serving Creatine
WORKOUT
-1 Serving Whey, 10oz. Milk, 1 C Oats, 1 Serving Creatine
-Dinner
-1 C Cottage Cheese, 1/4 C Almonds

On my non-lifting days during the week, I’m going to try to limit my carbs some as I want to gain some muscle, but I want to trim up a bit as well.

-1 Serving Whey, 10oz. Milk
-4 egg whites, 1 egg yolk, 1 piece of fruit, 1 serving fish oil, 6oz. V8, 1 serving liver powder, multi-vitamin.
-2oz. chicken, 1 C spinach, 1 T Olive Oil
-4oz. chicken, 1/2 C Green beans
-1 Can Tuna, 1/2 C Kidney Beans
CARDIO
-1 Serving Whey, 1 Serving Creatine
-Dinner
-1 C Cottage Cheese, 1/4 C Almonds

So basically I pulled 10oz. Milk, cut my greenbeans in half, removed the post-workout shake.

Yesterday was a workout day. When I got home from the gym, one of my wife’s friends stopped by. She brought a Costco pizza & chicken ceasar salad - I had 2 pieces & a side salad. According to fitday that put my totals at:

3,038 cals
Pro: 303g (42%)
Carb: 260 (31%)
Fat: 86 (27%)

Also, after my workout I weighed myself at the gym: 222 lbs (wearing tennis shoes, sock, drawers, basketball shorts & a t-shirt).

I drove home & measured myself after that.

Right Bicep: 16-1/4"
Chest: 43-1/2"
Waist: 38"
Butt: 42-3/4"
Quad: 25"
Calf: 17"

How’m I doing so far?

How are you doing? (grin) You’ve got some nice structure.

Limit milk to your first meal of the day or following resistance training. It’s the first thing I add in for someone bulking. Milk has a low glycemic index, but oddly enough a high insulin index. Insulin is what we’re trying to control. Doing so will allow you to build muscle and reduce fat … or at least minimize fat gain while bulking or minimize LBM loss while cutting.

Don’t try to cut fibrous green veggie carbs. That’s going to be counter productive ultimately and work against both your goals. I’m all for cutting out all starchy carbs not consumed PWO … just not your fibrous green veggie carbs. Above and beyond the health benefits and helping you to get your fiber, fibrous green veggies are your hunger safety net. If you consume enough fibrous green veggie carbs, you’ll be better able to say no when people offer you something that isn’t on your plan like pizza! (grin)

Remember along with olive oil, you need to get in your flaxseed oil and/or fish oil.

Have you entered what you’re eating into www.fitday.com to make sure you’re hitting your P and F numbers and not going over?

Very, very nice food choices and structure, franchise95p!!!

If you can, spring for a scale so that you can weigh and measure every Friday morning, out of bed, after you hit the restroom, sans clothes if possible, wearing the same clothes if not. It shouldn’t run you more than about $25.

Questions? (grin)

So, when you say limit milk to my first meal, you mean that early shake right, and don’t have it with my early shake & then breakfast? Then not have it again until post workout shake, right?

I’ve already made all my meals for the week, so starting next week, I won’t change a thing regarding the greens.

I’m currently taking fish oil pills with breakfast & then flaxseed pills with my post workout shake. Is that sufficient?

All the numbers I provided above were from fitday. That being said, I’m not entirely sure what I should be aiming for with the macronutrients or even kcal #.

I’ll try & get a scale here soon.

If you’re 220 pounds currently, you need 88g of fat per day. You should be consuming 2 tablespoons of olive oil per day (28g of fat) and 2 tablespoons of flaxseed oil per day (28g of fat). Reduce the amount of flaxseed oil by whatever amount of fish oil you’re taking in.

Consume your fish oil in a P+F meal, not in your PWO meal. You’re trying to keep fat as low as possible in your PWO meal.

So, when you say limit milk to my first meal, you mean that early shake right, and don’t have it with my early shake & then breakfast? Then not have it again until post workout shake, right?

Exactly!!! (grin)

All the numbers I provided above were from fitday. That being said, I’m not entirely sure what I should be aiming for with the macronutrients or even kcal #.

You’re shooting for 1g of protein per pound of body weight and 0.4g of fat per pound of body weight. I divide up the fat you’re getting so that you get roughly 1/3 polyunsaturated fat (in the form of fish and/or flaxseed oil), 1/3 monounsaturated fat (in the form of olive oil) and 1/3 saturated fat.

What I don’t do is give people number of carbs they’re supposed to consume or not allowed to go over. I do put limits in place by specifying serving size. The same with beans and with the number of starchy carbs you’re supposed to consume in your PWO meal. The variable is the amount of fibrous green veggie carbs a person consumes. If you’re active, you’ll eat/want more. If you’re sedentary, you’ll eat/want less. They really are self-regulating. Try overeating broccoli for me one time. (grin)

The fishoil I’m currently taking is Nature Made pills - 2 per serving. I believe that’s only 3g fat per serving. The flaxseed pills are only 1g per.

Should I up the serving amounts, take more frequently, or abandon them? I’m also eating a can of tuna each day, so I don’t know if I’m getting anything out of that, fatwise. Accoring to the can, I’m not.

Another thing I just thought of…

If I eat 1g protein per lbs. (220 x 1 x 4), that’s 880 calories.

If I eat .4g fat per lbs. (220 x .4 x 9), that’s 792 calories.

So not including carbs, that’s 1,672 kcal.

Now what I’d like to do is gain muscle, but not gain a bunch of fat. I was originally planning to have a decent amount of carbs on lifting days, and then low carbs on Tues/Thurs. My weekends are hectic to I was going to try to hit my protein goal, and then do my best to hit the other goals.

My point in all this is, even if I do 1g carbs per lbs, that’s still only another 880 kcal, putting my total at 2,552. Is that going to be sufficient to add muscle?

I work in an office and as such the majority of my day is spent fairly non-active.

OK, I think I’m all screwed up now. I was tinkering around on fitday and may have done more harm than good.

See if this makes any sense or if I’m all twisted.

5:30 am - 1 Scoop whey, 10oz milk: 228 cal, 31g pro, 18g carbs, 2g fat

7:00 am - 4 egg whites, 1 egg yolk, 1/2C pineapple, 6oz V8, 1 serv. liver powder, 1 serv. fish oil pills, 18oz coffee, 2 tsp. sugar: 307 cal, 27g pro, 29g carb, 9g fat

9:45 am - 1 Can Tuna, 1C Spinach: 157 cal, 33g pro, 1g carb, 1g fat

12:30 pm - 4oz chicken, 1 C broccoli: 215 cal, 38g pro, 6g carbs, 4g fat

3:30 pm - 1/2 C Kidney beans: 310 cal, 21g pro, 56g carbs, 1g fat

5:30 pm - 1 serving whey (pre-workout): 120 cal, 24g pro, 3g carb, 1g fat

7:00 pm - 1 serving whey, 10oz milk, 1 C oats: 539 cal, 47g pro, 72g carbs, 7g fat

7:30 pm - DINNER (not included in total)

9:45 pm - 1 C Cottage cheese, 1/4 C almonds: 330 cal, 34g pro, 15g carbs, 15g fat

Grand total not including dinner: 2,199 cal, 258g pro, 200g carbs, 40g fat

Now, I like my fat low like that, just because I never know what me & the wife are going to have for dinner, and that allows me to be a little less restricted. However, I don’t mind some restrictions.

There is no olive oil figured into that diet. I’m not opposed to doing that at all. I’m just at a loss on how to rework this and get my fat # where it should be, especially since my protein is already over where it should be, at 1g per lbs.

I feel like the more effort I put into figuring it out, the worse off it is.

Should I drop that first shake? I’m only walking my dog that early, not exactly expending a ton of energy.

The fishoil I’m currently taking is Nature Made pills - 2 per serving. I believe that’s only 3g fat per serving. The flaxseed pills are only 1g per.

You’ll find it’s a lot cheaper to take LIQUID flaxseed oil and LIQUID fish oil. I mix an orange flavored fish oil with my tuna sometimes. Taken that way, it’s actually quite yummy! (grin) On a practical level, 28g is a whole lotta capsules to be taking every day!!!

Now what I’d like to do is gain muscle, but not gain a bunch of fat. I was originally planning to have a decent amount of carbs on lifting days, and then low carbs on Tues/Thurs. My weekends are hectic to I was going to try to hit my protein goal, and then do my best to hit the other goals.

Are you wanting to stay the same scale weight, to up or down, Franchise? What I generally do with people is give them a few more starchy carbs on days they do resistance training. Not a lot. They’re consuming a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein on resistance training days. Then, based on what’s going on with the scale, I will adjust so that those goals are being met.

You should get started with your plan and stick with it for at least two weeks. You need to look at TRENDS and give greater weight to that, than to any single week’s results.

If a person is cutting, they’ll eat more fibrous green veggie carbs. If a person bulking, they’ll have to consume more starchy carbs. That’s really the only difference between the two. You don’t need huge difference in the amount of carbs you’re taking in on one day versus another (i.e., weight training vs. non-weight training). All you’re doing is refilling muscle glycogen and spiking insulin a little bit PWO to drop cortisol levels and shuttle amino acids into the muscles. It’s when a person takes in a whole bunch more than they need that fat storage happens.

My point in all this is, even if I do 1g carbs per lbs, that’s still only another 880 kcal, putting my total at 2,552. Is that going to be sufficient to add muscle?

Trust the process, Franchise. The plan you put together is only a starting point. We’ll make small adjustments based on how your body responds. You’ll make small adjustments (250-calorie increases) every week until you get exactly the results you want. Four small increase in caloric intake is better than one large increase where you end up overshooting.

OK, I think I’m all screwed up now. I was tinkering around on fitday and may have done more harm than good.

(grin) Nope, we learn by tinkering. We learn by asking questions. We learn by DOING something and even by making mistakes. Truth be told, I’ve learned more from my mistakes than I have from my successes!

Franchise, what you do is start with x number of meals. I’d actually recommend that you eat 6 meals, roughly 3 hours apart. Currently you’re eating 9 different times a day.

If you eat 6 meals a day, you should eat about 35-40g of protein at each and every meal. If you wanted to be precise, it should be 37g per meal, but people generally find it’s easier to hit a range than hit a precise number dead on.

Can I make a counter proposal?

05:30
09:00
12:30
04:00
07:30
09:45 to 10:30

What time do you work out?

From there you need to put in which meals are P+C and which are P+F

Then you play with each meal so that you ROUGHLY hit that 37g number for protein. You don’t have to worry about protein from other sources like oatmeal, broccoli, spinach, mushrooms. Only count protein from meat, fish, eggs and dairy. If you run over from other sources, you run over, and it doesn’t matter.

Then you add your good fat into your P+F meals. One meal should probably be a P-only meal.

Since you’re bulking, there isn’t any reason we couldn’t go a bit higher on fat. 0.4g - 0.5g of fat per pound of body weight is what John Berardi recommends. For you that translates into 88g to 110g. Once again, give yourself a range. If you’re still going over on your fat, then let me know, and I’ll see if I can’t help you fix it. For me to hit my fat numbers without going over, I have to pick leaner cuts of meat (chicken, shrimp, egg whites with one whole egg). I have to limit cheese and peanut butter nuts and/or treat them as a garnish.

Tell me if that helps. I know you’re bulking, but we need to make sure that things work for you on a practical, logistical level. We need everything as automatic and non-thinking as possible. And since your weekends are crazy, I’d recommend you do some bulk cooking so that you have little mini-meals sitting in the fridge, waiting for you. That’s my idea of fast food! (grin)

Questions? (grin)

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Where is the best place to track down the fishoil/flaxseed oil? I will look into getting it A.S.A.P.

I’m actually not too concerned about scale weight. It’d be nice to drop down to 205 I suppose, but really, it’s not a driving issue in my life at this time.

Also, I’m not married to any of my food choices. I like chicken so I try to eat a lot of it. Tuna’s cheap, so I try to get a can of that in per day as well. I do tend to miss peanut butter & bread, so I tend to include those on the weekend. That’s another thing I need to work on - my weekend eating habits are way off from my week plans. My weeks are structured. My weekends vary all the time and as a result, my diet suffers.

The only place I’m really “stuck” is a meal at 12:30 since that’s when I go to lunch, but you had a meal there, so that works for me.

I usually eat breakfast at 7 with my wife, but I can change that, if need be to 5:30am. I could let the dog out to go to the bathroom, eat, and then walk him I suppose.

I generally leave for the gym around 5:30-5:45pm, stay there about an hour, come home & have a shake, shower, then make dinner.

Thanks again for all your help. You are such a wonderful guide in all this. I truly appreciate it.

OK, how does this sound:

Meal 1 (5:30 if need be, 7 if you don’t have a problem with me walking & showering on an empty stomach): 4 Egg whites, 1 Egg Yolk, 1/2 C Pineapple, 10 oz milk, 6 oz V8, 1 serving NOW Liver, multi-vitamin: 36g pro, 34g carbs, 7g fat - P + C meal

Meal 2 (9:00 am): Can of tuna: 33g pro, 1g fat - P Only meal

Meal 3 (12:30 pm): 6oz chicken, 1 C broccoli, 1 T olive oil: 54g pro, 5g carb, 20g fat - P + F meal

Meal 4 (4:00 pm): 3/4 C Kidney beans: 31g pro, 85g carbs, 1g fat - P + C meal

1 Scoop whey w/ water (pre-workout): 24g pro, 3g carbs, 1g fat
WORKOUT
1 Scoop whey w/ 10oz milk, 1 C Oats: 47g pro, 72g carbs, 7g fat

Meal 5 (7:00pm): Dinner - varies

Meal 6 (9:45pm): 1 C Cottage cheese, 1 T Olive oil, 1/4 C almonds: 34g pro, 15g carbs, 29g fat - P + F + C meal

-Daily totals not including dinner-
Pro: 259g
Carbs: 214g
Fat: 66g

Your plan is shaping up nicely, Franchise!!!

How about a counter COUNTER proposal to the “breakfast with your wife” thing? That’s a tradition I’d prefer not to break. Take your 5:30 meal and cut it in half. Eat the second half with your wife at 7:00.

From the look of things you’ve been almost working out fasted state. We need to optimize that a bit.

How early do you get up? Would you be willing to make a whey shake with fruit the night before and leave it in the fridge and set your alarm clock at 4:30 to chug down HALF of your shake (40g of protein + 100 calories coming from fruit) and go back to bed for 20 zzz’s and then proceed as normal? You could have the second half of your shake as breakfast with your wife.

You are free to have black coffee or green tea on your way out the door. You’re free to have a serving of Surge (3 scoops for anyone >200 pounds) divided up before, during and after your workout. If you do take the Surge, change your per-meal numbers to 35g of protein per meal. You’ll be a bit over, but that’s all right. BCAAs would also be highly complementary to your peri-workout nutrition (peri = in and around).

Fleshing out your plan a little more, I’d propose this:

04:30 1/2 whey shake + 1/2 fruit
05:30 Workout w/ Surge & BCAAs
07:00 1/2 whey shake + 1/2 fruit
08:00 PWO meal (35g P + 70g starchy carbs) + Fruit
12:30 P + Fruit
04:00 P-Only
07:30 P + Fat
09:45 to 10:30 P + Fat

I didn’t read your second message until I typed my reply to your first message. Tell me what you think of what I proposed above, and we’ll take it from there.

Actually, my workout is 5:30PM, not AM. I’m walking the dog that early.

Also, I don’t take Surge…or any of the supplements offered on this site. Not yet at least.

Okay, let’s try this again. (grin)

I added in the Surge and BCAAs because I thought you were working out fasted state … or nearly fasted state, which is always a dicey deal.

05:30 P + Fruit (1/2 meal or portion)
07:00 P + Fruit (1/2 meal or portion)
09:00 P + Fruit
12:30 P + Fruit
03:30 P + Fat
05:30 Workout
07:00 Whole Food PWO Meal w/ Starchy Carbs
09:45 to 10:30 P + Fat

Once you have the structure, then you make sure you’re hitting your protein numbers each meal, getting 80-100 calories worth of fruit on your P+Fruit meals, your olive oil and flaxseed oil in the amounts you’re supposed to get, the proper amount of starchy carbs in your PWO meal.

Don’t worry about calories. Just make sure you’re getting all of what you’re supposed to get, but no more than what you’re supposed to get.

Now the real work begins. Picking the foods you want to eat and making sure the amounts are right. (grin)

Wow…now I’m completly confused.

I understood the P + F & P + C stuff, but now I’m a bit lost.

Is milk still OK in the mornings and post workout? Is all the fruit in addition to the C’s & F’s?