T Nation

Nolvadex Experiment

Hey, I had some extra Nolvadex from genpharm and for some reason I wanted to see how it would work if taken alone without exercise.

I had a 2 week vacation coming up and figured that would be the best time to check it out. When I say no exercise I mean NO exercise; sitting around, eating crap, smoking crap, just great. But I took 20mg for about 10 days. I felt an increase in libido, but since I didn’t have a scale or calipers I couldn’t do any measurements the whole time I was gone.

When I returned I measured my self first thing in the morning after ‘evacuating’ and found that I had stayed the same weight and lost a bit over a percent in body fat. Measured again later and then the next morning and found the same results.

I wasn’t working out, doing cardio…shit I barely walked farther than the beach or the kitchen for 2 weeks and not only did I stay in shape but I leaned out some too. Pretty badass if you ask me.

I really hope that some of the more learned and experienced among you could comment on this.
If nolvadex works better than otc test boosters, plus it’s cheaper, plus it’s easier to get are there what’s the best way to do a Nolvadex “cycle” while on an AAs free cut?

Would Clomid be better? Personally I’ve never tried it.

To recap: 10 days on nolvadex alone, no exercise, shitty diet, stayed at same weight and lost fat. Does this sound right to anyone and if so why dont we do Nolvadex whenever we want to cut without doin the juice?

Looking forward to hearing back about this interesting phenomenon ( though this might not be a phenomenon at all and everyone but me knew about this and I’m just a dumbass, Either way get back to me.)
Thanks…

I believe Nolva increases LH which in turn inreases T.
BTW high doses of Nolva can increase pressure in the eyes.

People do use nolva as a fat loss drug for its estrogen antagonism and minimal T-boosting properties. I’ve only done a MAG-10 cycle myself to date, but I have used low-dose standalone nolvadex and arimidex before. I too noticed a boost in fat loss.

I was training and eating normally, though. I found fat loss more pronounced with arimidex actually and also really seemed to dry out without any water or sodium manipulation.

How long can I take 20mg’s a day? And what should I do afterwards given that I’ll have higher t? Also, if I’m going to use an anti-e to aid in libido and fat loss would you recommend clomid, proviron or nolva? Arimidex is pricey and I want something to use inbetween cycles or during a cut. I’ve read up on most of the drugs pharmokinetics and long term studies but I’d still like to hear what you have to say.

[quote]keyrat22 wrote:
How long can I take 20mg’s a day? And what should I do afterwards given that I’ll have higher t? Also, if I’m going to use an anti-e to aid in libido and fat loss would you recommend clomid, proviron or nolva? Arimidex is pricey and I want something to use inbetween cycles or during a cut. I’ve read up on most of the drugs pharmokinetics and long term studies but I’d still like to hear what you have to say.

[/quote]

as far as Proviorn is concerned, it’s still an adrogen, so long term use could cause T-suppression. maybe 3 weeks of Proviron and then 3 weeks to follow up with Nolva?

[quote]keyrat22 wrote:
Hey, I had some extra Nolvadex from genpharm and for some reason I wanted to see how it would work if taken alone without exercise.

I had a 2 week vacation coming up and figured that would be the best time to check it out. When I say no exercise I mean NO exercise; sitting around, eating crap, smoking crap, just great. But I took 20mg for about 10 days. I felt an increase in libido, but since I didn’t have a scale or calipers I couldn’t do any measurements the whole time I was gone.

When I returned I measured my self first thing in the morning after ‘evacuating’ and found that I had stayed the same weight and lost a bit over a percent in body fat. Measured again later and then the next morning and found the same results.

I wasn’t working out, doing cardio…shit I barely walked farther than the beach or the kitchen for 2 weeks and not only did I stay in shape but I leaned out some too. Pretty badass if you ask me.

I really hope that some of the more learned and experienced among you could comment on this.
If nolvadex works better than otc test boosters, plus it’s cheaper, plus it’s easier to get are there what’s the best way to do a Nolvadex “cycle” while on an AAs free cut?

Would Clomid be better? Personally I’ve never tried it.

To recap: 10 days on nolvadex alone, no exercise, shitty diet, stayed at same weight and lost fat. Does this sound right to anyone and if so why dont we do Nolvadex whenever we want to cut without doin the juice?

Looking forward to hearing back about this interesting phenomenon ( though this might not be a phenomenon at all and everyone but me knew about this and I’m just a dumbass, Either way get back to me.)
Thanks…[/quote]

btw, thanks for posting your results. there was a previous post along these lines: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1527183

Using a SERM will increase T, but E will also rise. The increased E means more SHBG and that reduces FT. So the effect on TT and FT is offset by T–>E conversion and FT–>TT conversion via SHBG. And the higher E blocks some T action at T receptors which reduces the effect of the FT that remains. SERMs do not protect T receptors.

In my mind it is better to reduce E with AI and ADD a SERM if there are any gyno issues and taper off of the SERM when the gyno clears up.

SERMs have [some] estrogenic side effects. Clomid makes some guys emotional (crying). And the increased E levels probably reduce fat loss and promote female fat pattern tendencies and syndrome-X belly fat patterns. I have not seen any reason to claim that SERMs protect one from E related effects on body fat patterns. And if you cannot loose fat, then you will not be reducing the aromatase T–>E conversion in the fat tissues.

It is best to reduce E and SHBG with an AI and with fat loss. SERMs increase E and have some unwanted [but not fully understood] direct estrogenic side effects. No need to deal with those SERMs side effects unless one needs to deal with things like gyno [short term]. This excludes the short term needs for a SERM to help wake up the HPTA after a cycle and HCG also has a role to play in that.

If one was to try a SERM for a HRT method, I would suggest getting stable on an AI with target E at 17-20, then get on the SERM and stop the AI. You would then be in the best position to feel the changes from increasing E and SHBG and note if overall you feel better and have any changes in libido. Effects on body fat are difficult and take a long time to become evident… so conclusions will be harder to reach.

I guess the critical issue is the effect of a SERM and rising E on fat tissue. I think that that would drive weight gain or loss resistance UNLESS SERMs block the effects of E on body fat patterns. I do not think that there is any evidence for that [that I have seen].

We also know that increased E levels makes many guys on TRT still feel low engergy, low libido, ED, brain fog etc. Will a SERM protect someone from those mental effects? One way to tell, take a guy on TRT and those E driven problems [with high TT levels] and try a SERM to see what problems that clears up. The T levels will be good before and after. The E levels will get worse and the SHBG will increase. Does not sound very promising. We do know that AI can be very effective in clearing up those E related mental/mood/libido problems.

[quote]Old Dax wrote:
I believe Nolva increases LH which in turn inreases T.
BTW high doses of Nolva can increase pressure in the eyes.[/quote]

I’m fairly certain this side effect is only associated with clomiphene and NOT tamoxifen.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Using a SERM will increase T, but E will also rise. The increased E means more SHBG and that reduces FT. So the effect on TT and FT is offset by T–>E conversion and FT–>TT conversion via SHBG.[/quote]

Do you mean to say that there is an actual increase in estrogen? Or do you mean to say that there is in increase in circulating estrogen?
It seems to me there would be an increase in circulating estrogen because of the SERM’s action at the ER. But I don’t know about an actual increase in estrogen.

If the SERM is competing with estrogen at the ER, how would that impact ones fat mass distribution? I could see this happening after one has discontinued the SERM, with the increased amount of circulating estrogen now able to do it’s dirty work.
Any studies you could point me to on this?

Anastrazole and letrozole are kind of out of the question simply due to their price. My initial question was basically asking if nolvadex, proviron,clomid or any combination of the three (or two) could be used- and how- as an endogenous test booster to promote fat loss/muscle retention while on a cut without aa’s.

I know proviron is used durign cycles many times to reduce aromatization. Would a combination of nolva and proviron be effective? They’re cheap. ALSO what would be some sample dosages and dosing schedules (I cant call this a “cycle”).

Ideally one would want to take it while cutting ( or when massing without AA’s) while at the same time limiting the amount of estrogen in the blood once this pseudo cycle is over right? How would you suggest going about doing that? Nolva+proviron for how long and at what respective dosages?

It seems to me that most people who’ve used low-dose standalone nolva, have experienced increased fat loss. Neverthelles, it does act as a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist. For this reason, though, as Ksman says, I think arimidex would be preferable for someone wanting a little fat lost boost and boost in T. As a practical matter, when I used armidex, I had better fat loss than with nolva. It’s nothing something to do longterm in my opinion. It’s not without its sides. As a shorterm boost, I think it could be appropriate for most people.

Not sure where you’re shopping. But you can get arimidex for nearly as cheap as nolva, particularly if you go the research chemical route.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Using a SERM will increase T, but E will also rise. The increased E means more SHBG and that reduces FT. So the effect on TT and FT is offset by T–>E conversion and FT–>TT conversion via SHBG. And the higher E blocks some T action at T receptors which reduces the effect of the FT that remains. SERMs do not protect T receptors.

In my mind it is better to reduce E with AI and ADD a SERM if there are any gyno issues and taper off of the SERM when the gyno clears up.

SERMs have [some] estrogenic side effects. Clomid makes some guys emotional (crying). And the increased E levels probably reduce fat loss and promote female fat pattern tendencies and syndrome-X belly fat patterns. I have not seen any reason to claim that SERMs protect one from E related effects on body fat patterns. And if you cannot loose fat, then you will not be reducing the aromatase T–>E conversion in the fat tissues.

It is best to reduce E and SHBG with an AI and with fat loss. SERMs increase E and have some unwanted [but not fully understood] direct estrogenic side effects. No need to deal with those SERMs side effects unless one needs to deal with things like gyno [short term]. This excludes the short term needs for a SERM to help wake up the HPTA after a cycle and HCG also has a role to play in that.

If one was to try a SERM for a HRT method, I would suggest getting stable on an AI with target E at 17-20, then get on the SERM and stop the AI. You would then be in the best position to feel the changes from increasing E and SHBG and note if overall you feel better and have any changes in libido. Effects on body fat are difficult and take a long time to become evident… so conclusions will be harder to reach.

I guess the critical issue is the effect of a SERM and rising E on fat tissue. I think that that would drive weight gain or loss resistance UNLESS SERMs block the effects of E on body fat patterns. I do not think that there is any evidence for that [that I have seen].

We also know that increased E levels makes many guys on TRT still feel low engergy, low libido, ED, brain fog etc. Will a SERM protect someone from those mental effects? One way to tell, take a guy on TRT and those E driven problems [with high TT levels] and try a SERM to see what problems that clears up. The T levels will be good before and after. The E levels will get worse and the SHBG will increase. Does not sound very promising. We do know that AI can be very effective in clearing up those E related mental/mood/libido problems.[/quote]

Personally, I believe a SERM does what KSMan is saying: it increased T AND E. To combat the increased E, take the AI with the SERM. I have tried this and gained a slight boost in natural T and normal levels of E. This is all determined by blood tests.

So, as far as my experience is concerned, a SERM + AI is goodness. An AI by itself, as suggested, is also good…but I think the combo is better.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

So, as far as my experience is concerned, a SERM + AI is goodness. An AI by itself, as suggested, is also good…but I think the combo is better.[/quote]

Really? Even for someone who hasn’t done a cycle and has just wants a litle shorterm boost? Seems like it might be overkill. What dosage of each would you recommend?

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
buffd_samurai wrote:

So, as far as my experience is concerned, a SERM + AI is goodness. An AI by itself, as suggested, is also good…but I think the combo is better.

Really? Even for someone who hasn’t done a cycle and has just wants a litle shorterm boost? Seems like it might be overkill. What dosage of each would you recommend?[/quote]

50 mg Clomid (or 20 mg Novaldex)/day + 0.25 mg of Arimidex/day

I understand what you’re thinking with respect to possible overkill…and that’s what I thought. Until I actually tried the above protocol and compared it to just taking the Arimidex. The combo was definitely worth the increase in endogenous test with no increase (or substantial decrease) in estrogen (estrodiol). This wasn’t just qualitative assessment; this was from my very real bloodwork.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
buffd_samurai wrote:

So, as far as my experience is concerned, a SERM + AI is goodness. An AI by itself, as suggested, is also good…but I think the combo is better.

Really? Even for someone who hasn’t done a cycle and has just wants a litle shorterm boost? Seems like it might be overkill. What dosage of each would you recommend?

50 mg Clomid (or 20 mg Novaldex)/day + 0.25 mg of Arimidex/day

I understand what you’re thinking with respect to possible overkill…and that’s what I thought. Until I actually tried the above protocol and compared it to just taking the Arimidex. The combo was definitely worth the increase in endogenous test with no increase (or substantial decrease) in estrogen (estrodiol). This wasn’t just qualitative assessment; this was from my very real bloodwork.

[/quote]

Interesting. Thanks. How long did you do it for? Any problems coming off? Or T and E just returned to normal baseline?

Good questions jsbrook. Thanks for asking and for your interest.

I was on that protocol for approximately 3 months. I didn’t just stop though when it was over (it was over because I felt like I had to completely “clean out” for 3 months before embarking on another steroid cycle); I basically cut the intake in half for a couple weeks and only took arimidex twice a week.

NO problems with endogeneous test or estrodiol going back to baseline values.

I have to say it (I always do): this is what happens with ME. It does NOT mean everyone’s body will respond in a like manner. Really, everyone should try to research and understand the substances we decide to take, but everyone ultimately must gage what it does for THEM.

We are really all pretty unique; you never know if you happen to be one of those “outliers” from the traditional bell curve.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Good questions jsbrook. Thanks for asking and for your interest.

I was on that protocol for approximately 3 months. I didn’t just stop though when it was over (it was over because I felt like I had to completely “clean out” for 3 months before embarking on another steroid cycle); I basically cut the intake in half for a couple weeks and only took arimidex twice a week.

NO problems with endogeneous test or estrodiol going back to baseline values.

I have to say it (I always do): this is what happens with ME. It does NOT mean everyone’s body will respond in a like manner. Really, everyone should try to research and understand the substances we decide to take, but everyone ultimately must gage what it does for THEM.

We are really all pretty unique; you never know if you happen to be one of those “outliers” from the traditional bell curve. [/quote]

Thanks for the input. I think I might try this protocol this summer but maybe not for such an exended time. I’ll be a summer associate at a law firm which means they pay a lot for us to work a little [until they have us fulltime and we become slaves].

But this summer, they’ll be a lot of dining and a decent bit of wine-ing. It’d be nice to optimize hormone levels during this period when diet might not be quite what it usually is.