T Nation

Nolvadex + Arimidex


#1

Hi guys,

I just recently discovered that I had quite a hormonal imbalance for some time. I have never used AAS but discovered that I had low T, high E and recently I developed gyno. Yeah, I know, all of a sudden, without using steroids. Probably, the western modern diet and the environmental factors are due to blame.
I started to include far more fats in my diet and I brought out my T from 380 to 720 ng/dl so I figured the low T part of the equation.

Now I want to reverse my gyno and correct my E levels (they were 44 picograms/ml).
I will use a protocol of 40 mg/day Nolvadex + 0.125 mg EOD of Arimidex. That would be for the first week. Then I will use just 20 mg/day Nolvadex + 0.125 mg EOD of Arimidex. How long should I continue using the Nolvadex? Also I plan to do a blood test about 3 weeks into the protocol to see if my Arimidex Dose is enough to half my E levels and to bring them down to an optimum 22 picograms/ml. If not, I will modify my Arimidex dose.

What do you guys say about this protocol? Do you think it is ok? Any side effects that I should expect?


#2

[quote]ssj4goku1992 wrote:
Hi guys,

I just recently discovered that I had quite a hormonal imbalance for some time. I have never used AAS but discovered that I had low T, high E and recently I developed gyno. Yeah, I know, all of a sudden, without using steroids. Probably, the western modern diet and the environmental factors are due to blame.
I started to include far more fats in my diet and I brought out my T from 380 to 720 ng/dl so I figured the low T part of the equation.

Now I want to reverse my gyno and correct my E levels (they were 44 picograms/ml).
I will use a protocol of 40 mg/day Nolvadex + 0.125 mg EOD of Arimidex. That would be for the first week. Then I will use just 20 mg/day Nolvadex + 0.125 mg EOD of Arimidex. How long should I continue using the Nolvadex? Also I plan to do a blood test about 3 weeks into the protocol to see if my Arimidex Dose is enough to half my E levels and to bring them down to an optimum 22 picograms/ml. If not, I will modify my Arimidex dose.

What do you guys say about this protocol? Do you think it is ok? Any side effects that I should expect?[/quote]

i’d recommend raloxifene and aromasin, actually.


#3

I knew about Raloxifene being superior to Nolva in terms of reducing Gyno but it’s kind of expensive… I thought about first trying with Nolva and only then, if it does not work I will try with Raloxifene.

About Aromasin I heard different opinions. Some swear that it’s better than Arimidex. Some swear by the other way. Either way I heard that it’s far more expensive than A-dex too. ( In my country a full package of 28 tabs of 1 mg is 35 dollars at a pharmacy). And I will take a 0.5 mg / week dose. So very good cost wise.

In the end, even though you think that that option is superior, would this one be a good option too?


#4

Does your health and well being really have a monetary value? I mean we’re not talking thousands of dollars here and you obviously have a computer and internet so… don’t see why so much importance is being put on cost.


#5

[quote]ssj4goku1992 wrote:
I knew about Raloxifene being superior to Nolva in terms of reducing Gyno but it’s kind of expensive… I thought about first trying with Nolva and only then, if it does not work I will try with Raloxifene.

About Aromasin I heard different opinions. Some swear that it’s better than Arimidex. Some swear by the other way. Either way I heard that it’s far more expensive than A-dex too. ( In my country a full package of 28 tabs of 1 mg is 35 dollars at a pharmacy). And I will take a 0.5 mg / week dose. So very good cost wise.

In the end, even though you think that that option is superior, would this one be a good option too?[/quote]

the option i gave is what i feel is the best idea. one can obtain “research chemicals” for much lower price than pharm-grade stuff…

as for your plan, here is some criticism:

-your A-dex dose is too low. .5 mg to 1 mg/day typically lowers estrogen 50% in men.

-a-dex/letro and nolvadex reduce each other’s blood levels. while there is a study that shows they don’t seem to have a big effect in reality, that study was in women, not men.

-there’s simply no clinical evidence that shows it’s a worthwhile idea to take nolva at 40 mg/day. most of the studies are done with 10-20 mg/day.


#6

Sadly in my country, yes costs do matter…

Funny, because in the TRT forum everyone was bent on me trying MAXIMUM 0.5 mg EOD.
What you are describing is insane. Nobody in their right mind not on steroids is taking 1 mg/day… Please do not give bad advice if you do not know from real experience what you are saying…


#7

Doesn’t matter, in 3 weeks I get the labs and I will see if the dose was alright or not.
Thanks!


#8

[quote]ssj4goku1992 wrote:
Sadly in my country, yes costs do matter…

Funny, because in the TRT forum everyone was bent on me trying MAXIMUM 0.5 mg EOD.
What you are describing is insane. Nobody in their right mind not on steroids is taking 1 mg/day… Please do not give bad advice if you do not know from real experience what you are saying…[/quote]

You come in asking questions, you get answers and act like a jackwagon. Do not shit on advice unless you have evidence showing the advice is bad.

I’m on 1mg a day, and it’s only working so-so. My e2 is currently 68pg/ml.


#9

[quote]ssj4goku1992 wrote:
Sadly in my country, yes costs do matter…

Funny, because in the TRT forum everyone was bent on me trying MAXIMUM 0.5 mg EOD.
What you are describing is insane. Nobody in their right mind not on steroids is taking 1 mg/day… Please do not give bad advice if you do not know from real experience what you are saying…[/quote]

Since you have all the answers you don’t need advice from cyco. Enjoy that gyno.


#10

If you’re too stupid to understand these things in CONTEXT, you should not even be self-medicating. Go schedule an operation to remove the gyno.


#11

[quote]ssj4goku1992 wrote:
Doesn’t matter, in 3 weeks I get the labs and I will see if the dose was alright or not.
Thanks![/quote]

Dumb fuck.

EDIT

Forget it. Can’t be bothered with this kid.


#12

[quote]ssj4goku1992 wrote:
Sadly in my country, yes costs do matter…

Funny, because in the TRT forum everyone was bent on me trying MAXIMUM 0.5 mg EOD.
What you are describing is insane. Nobody in their right mind not on steroids is taking 1 mg/day… Please do not give bad advice if you do not know from real experience what you are saying…[/quote]

you need to understand the difference between an AAS/TRT user and regular person.

if you don’t believe me, do the research yourself and look at the data on healthy men using AI’s.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18426834


#13

[quote]ssj4goku1992 wrote:
Sadly in my country, yes costs do matter…

Funny, because in the TRT forum everyone was bent on me trying MAXIMUM 0.5 mg EOD.
What you are describing is insane. Nobody in their right mind not on steroids is taking 1 mg/day… Please do not give bad advice if you do not know from real experience what you are saying…[/quote]

Cyco is one of the most knowlegable persons on this forum. You on the other hand have gyno and don’t seem to understand e2, so I would probably listen to the knowledgable individual over gyno stricken self medicating kid.


#14

LOL! I love this. OP, why even ask for advice if you’re not interested in hearing other opinions? You’re clearly not open to changes compounds, or dosages. What were you willing to change, if not either of these things?


#15

OP, you have selective attention. Two people in TRT forum told you that Nolvadex will NOT reverse your gyno. You will need surgery. Stop denying this fact to yourself.

Adex is suggested to keep your high E2 in check. I still reccomend 0.5mg/week and adjust after labs. More is needed in AAS context, which is not your case.


#16

^why that low of a dose?

that’s more of a maintenance dose for guys on AAS and TRT… we already know he has high estrogen. why not use a therapeutic dose to address that?


#17

On TRT most guys need around 1mg/week. Myself, I only take 0.25mg per week. Takes my E2 from 50s to mid 20s. We’ve seen over-responders more and more often. I suggest 0.5mg because he’s not even on TRT dose. Adex only. His T is decent.

Arguing about the starting dose is kind of pointless. The most important thing is the dose adjustment after his next set of labs. If he needs more or less, it’s correctable.


#18

[quote]Igs wrote:
On TRT most guys need around 1mg/week. Myself, I only take 0.25mg per week. Takes my E2 from 50s to mid 20s. We’ve seen over-responders more and more often. I suggest 0.5mg because he’s not even on TRT dose. Adex only. His T is decent.

Arguing about the starting dose is kind of pointless. The most important thing is the dose adjustment after his next set of labs. If he needs more or less, it’s correctable. [/quote]

he’s not on TRT, however. he doesn’t have the overall hormonal suppression that occurs from that. a lot of people forget the role that the testes play in aromatization, and that their shutdown on an AAS cycle reduces issues with that. and since his HPTA is not suppressed, there is also the aromatization that occurs from androstendione, something else that ceases on TRT/AAS use…

in this instance, i think looking at the clinical data of the use of an AI is pretty clear cut…

like i said before, there’s plenty of data out there:

http://press.endocrine.org/.../jc.2003-031279

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/10902781

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/18426834

and while Ralox/Nolva might not remove the gyno completely, there’s also plenty of clinical and anecdotal evidence that they can shrink the size of it substantially.

^i’ll reiterate, to clarify my points.

in this case, Aromasin seems to the best best choice, for several reasons. while it’s a little weaker than letro and a-dex, it is less likely to drop the estrogen levels too low. also, it’s faster acting, and the shorter half-life allows it to be adjusted easier. and since it is a suicidal AI, the risk of estrogen rebound appears to be smaller, as well.

and ralox is slightly more effective than nolva at treating gyno. additionally, it is less likely to raise testosterone levels as much as nolva, which is unnecessary at this point, as we don’t want test to be so high it encourages additional aromatization.


#19

Ok, your edit def cleares it up. I took a way simplistic look at this, not accounting for testicular aromatization. I stand corrected.

From my understanding, Adex does not have an effect on intratesticular aromatization which will call for higher doses to drive down the aromatization in peripheral sites. (My guess)

Thanks for the info. Will read the studies after work.


#20

Whoa Whoa! A lot of smartasses around here, isn’t that?!

Hey, I did not want to sound offensive. I apologise if my post was seen as offensive to a knowledgeable poster out here. Just that when 20 damn threads by very knowledgeable posters around here and on other websites (like KSman) tell you that you should use 1 mg/week TOPS and when someone says to use 1 mg/day, it was normal to react like that.

Do not insult or things like that, we aren’t in kindergarten. We are all trying to learn from eachother. Do not think that I am just asking questions on the forum and that’s it. Probably I have hundreds of hours of research but I always want to hear opinions, be sure about it, things like that.

To the poster that requested my attention because he told me in the TRT forum that Nolvadex does not heal gyno. Listen, as I have said, I do not just post a question here and take it as face value. I pose the question to many forums, to many people, I research a lot and try to become as knowledgeable on the subject as I can.

Now, when there is a sticky on the biggest website about AAS in the world on how to treat gyno, and there is ALL ABOUT SERMS, and I found threads with people who reversed their gynos with them, how shouldn’t I believe that they heal gyno?

Here is the thread if you want to check it:

http://forums.steroid.com/pct-post-cycle-therapy/541874-stop-using-aromatase-inhibitors-reverse-gynecomastia-serms-only.html

Back to the topic. The pharmacy that had Nolva did not have Arimidex. Luckily I am a personal trainer and one of my clients is a doctor with which I talked a lot about these things (actually I taught her a lot of things that I learned here) and she will tell me if she can help me with it. If not I will purchase it as a research chemical in liquid form and it will be shipped in a few weeks. So until now I am only on Nolva 40 mg/day. I do not feel anything. Not a side effect, but not any testosterone boosting effect either . (though I read the study in which it will increase it by 50% in just a few days). Regarding the gyno, well I did not even complete a week of treatment so I do not have anything to comment about that.

Feel free to chime in and add your opinion :slight_smile: