T Nation

Nolva Curiosity

I am curious about a few possible alternative uses of Nolvadex outside of PCT.

What side effects are expected from longer term Tamoxifen Citrate use?

I have read that 20mg ED can increase testosterone output by roughly 150%, would this make Nolvadex a reasonable Bridging choice?

Can Nolvadex’s increase in testosterone output lessen/negate shutdown from “weak” AAS use?

Is the lowering of IGF significant from Nolva use?

Long term usage of SERM is not recommended, but doable if you really felt like it. I personally hate being on SERM’s, acne, moodiness, its not severe, but its noticable.

They are estrogens after all.

5mg of dbol in the morning is a MUCH better choice in the “bridging” games.

Or the use of an AI for test boosting, which I do, and is quite cheap/effective.

Letro can boost test SIGNIFICANTLY by keeping estrogen low normal, limiting the suppression and competition of the estrogen compounds on the androgens.

No SERMs can not prevent androgen suppression, only estrogen.

Nolva is originally a breast cancer drug, that is its usage.

At what dose would Letro be used at for bridging use?

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Long term usage of SERM is not recommended, but doable if you really felt like it. I personally hate being on SERM’s, acne, moodiness, its not severe, but its noticable.

They are estrogens after all.

5mg of dbol in the morning is a MUCH better choice in the “bridging” games.

Or the use of an AI for test boosting, which I do, and is quite cheap/effective.

Letro can boost test SIGNIFICANTLY by keeping estrogen low normal, limiting the suppression and competition of the estrogen compounds on the androgens.

No SERMs can not prevent androgen suppression, only estrogen.

Nolva is originally a breast cancer drug, that is its usage.

[/quote]

Yes! This is my experience. I heard it was androgens that give you acne - but its the fucking serms.

Moreover, my mood is ALL OVER the place on these things - like a bitch girl. At first i thought it was the Clomid, but i’m the same faggot deal on the Nolva - like crying three days a week over nonsense. :’(

What dose letro would you use please?

The letro concept was introduced to me by Bill Roberts.

I started with his recommendation of .36mg/day with 3 times that dose on the first day to rapidly bring the levels up.

But I have since changed the dose depending on what product I use, its actually somewhat tricky to find a sweet spot with letro when your not on cycle.

Letro is a very strong drug and how you react to it is not always the same for all users, your natural test production is no where near cycle levels, hence tanking your estrogen is very doable if your not careful.

Play with the dose, measure accurately, bloodwork once you found a dose you think is good, check the numbers to be sure.

The use of an AI or a SERM as a bridge is a risky choice at best. You’re much much better off with a peptide like GHRP6

I’ve only just started looking into this after detroitlionsbaby pointed it out to me, but I’ve recently become interested in Exemestane/Aromasin’s actions off-cycle for this very reason. If I have this right, as a suicidal aromatase inhibitor (can I say a “true” aromatase inhibitor?), we shouldn’t have to worry about lowering estrogen too much, only that estrogen that has been aromatized from testosterone, which is what most of us have to worry about (something I, in particular, have been dealing with lately).

It has also been shown to raise testosterone levels off cycle. Sounds like a pretty nice alternative to me. I will be receiving some in the next week or so and employing it soon.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
I’ve only just started looking into this after detroitlionsbaby pointed it out to me, but I’ve recently become interested in Exemestane/Aromasin’s actions off-cycle for this very reason. If I have this right, as a suicidal aromatase inhibitor (can I say a “true” aromatase inhibitor?), we shouldn’t have to worry about lowering estrogen too much, only that estrogen that has been aromatized from testosterone, which is what most of us have to worry about (something I, in particular, have been dealing with lately).

It has also been shown to raise testosterone levels off cycle. Sounds like a pretty nice alternative to me. I will be receiving some in the next week or so and employing it soon. [/quote]

I’m not sure I follow you here Cortes. Could you please clarify?

My understanding is that the difference between Arimidex (for example) and Aromasin is that one binds reversibly to the active site of the aromatase enzyme and the other binds irreversibly to the active site of the aromatase enzyme (respectively). So, even though it seems that the Aromasin would be more effective by permanently disabling the aromatase enzyme, they are both blocking the same enzyme. This is why I don’t follow your point that we shouldn’t have to worry about lowering estrogen too much.

We’re all only concerned with the estrogen that is formed from the aromatization of testosterone but aren’t both drugs targeting the same enzyme (again, the only difference being that one permanently disables it and the other disables it through constant competition as long as the dosage is constant)?

Die

You may be right. I was half awake when I posted that and half asleep right now.

I have part of the equation here: With aromasin, since it permanently deactivates the aromatase enzyme it attaches to we don’t have to worry about estrogen “coming back,” so to speak.

Here’s a nice explanation I found online by someone more awake than I am:

[i]Aromasin and Adex are similar in suppression of estrogen as a percentage (aromasin at 20mg ED or Adex at .25-.50mg EOD are said to produce similar results in terms of Esto Suppression while on cycle) They are different however in that Aromasin permanently deactivates the Aromitase Enzyme it attatches to while Adex deactivates it for only as long as it is attached. Once it becomes detached the enzyme becomes active again. This is why Aromasin is called a suicidal inhibitor.

The other differences are that Aromasin does not reportedly harm our very important Cholesterol Lipid levels and is exclusive out of these 3 in having this ability. This is very important because Steroids in general and in particular Oral AAS are already doing a number on our lipid profiles as it is. They raise LDL (bad Cholesterol) and lower HDL (good cholesterol) and so we want to avoid exascerbating this situation further.

The last difference is that the effects of Aromasin do not interfere with the action of Nolvadex which makes it the perfect partner going into PCT, where the use of Nolva is a must and the lowering of the estrogen circulating in our systems is a major goal while we get our natty test production back online.
[/i]

Back on to Nolva. Is it just my imagination but does anybody else feel that nolva (maybe SERMS in general) lowers sex drive (desire not ability)?

[quote]Cymru wrote:
Back on to Nolva. Is it just my imagination but does anybody else feel that nolva (maybe SERMS in general) lowers sex drive (desire not ability)?[/quote]

I always wonder about comments like this… is it the SERM itself, or is it the fact that you’re [mainly] using a SERM when you’re supressed and have low T.

I’m just trying to figure out of it’s the actual SERM or it’s the fact that you don’t have much (if any) testosterone in your system.

I guess one way to figure it out would be take a SERM dose (the same dose as you would for PCT) on cycle and see how you feel, then compare it to off cycle while on your PCT (the same dose of SERM, obviously.)

Thoughts?

[quote]Cymru wrote:
Back on to Nolva. Is it just my imagination but does anybody else feel that nolva (maybe SERMS in general) lowers sex drive (desire not ability)?[/quote]

Good question, Cymru. I’m going to get back to you on this in about a week. I am just about to come off after 6 weeks of nolva (6 month, very heavy cycle, so I employed pretty agressive PCT). Unfortunately, I do not have access to detailed bloodwork (shitty Japanese healthcare system) unless I want to pay an exorbitant amount of money. However, I am a very good judge of my body, by all subjective measures, I would have to say I feel fully recovered. Except. My workouts are great again, I have the energy to blast through them like I used to and I recover quickly. I feel good overall. All of the acne and crap has stopped. My testicle size has returned to full normal. Ejaculate volume is INSANE (Is this a side effect of nolva? Holy shit!!!). Erections are full and hard. In short, everything feels great, only, I don’t feel quite the libido drive that I used to have. I don’t have a lot of experience with nolva, and I’m off the nolva after tomorrow, so I’ll have to see what happens then.

And to stop a question before it starts, I did have prolactin issues but I have and have been taking plenty of cabergoline along with moderate amounts of AI so I don’t think that should be part of the problem, either.

Anyway, I’ll report back in a week or so.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
I always wonder about comments like this… is it the SERM itself, or is it the fact that you’re [mainly] using a SERM when you’re supressed and have low T.

I’m just trying to figure out of it’s the actual SERM or it’s the fact that you don’t have much (if any) testosterone in your system.
[/quote]

See my post above.

But then, I’m just a shitty case study. A really shitty one, in that I don’t have before or after blood work.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
I always wonder about comments like this… is it the SERM itself, or is it the fact that you’re [mainly] using a SERM when you’re supressed and have low T.

I’m just trying to figure out of it’s the actual SERM or it’s the fact that you don’t have much (if any) testosterone in your system.
[/quote]

See my post above.

But then, I’m just a shitty case study. A really shitty one, in that I don’t have before or after blood work.[/quote]

Interesting. So you think that SERMs do in fact lower libido, as you don’t have any other signs of low T?

I really don’t know. This is the first I’ve actually heard of it, but I’ve been kind of worrying about why I don’t feel quite as horny as I used to feel, while everything else feels exactly right, even better than right, actually, if that makes any sense. And Cymru’s post about SERMs maybe having this effect sent off alarm bells in my head. Like I said, I’m dropping the nolva after two more days, so I should know one way or another around a week from now. I rather hope he’s right!

Cool. Thanks.

FWIW, I had enough pharm grade nolva for my first two weeks of PCT at 40mg/day, and then switched to research lab nolva for my last two weeks at 20mg/day… and it was in the beginning of the third week that my libido started coming back, but I just attributed that to my HPTA recovering, not a decreased dose of tamoxifen.

:confused:

I was taking HCG from day 1 of my cycle and I am tapering Letro currently through my PCT. Currently I am on 20mg/day of Nolva and .25mg/day of Letro. Although I don’t have blood tests to prove it yet (I keep planning on making an appointment), those 3 factors should mean that my Test levels are normal or even slightly high (due to the Letro) YET I have NO LIBIDO WHATSOEVER.

Therefore, I also suspect and hope that the libido issues are due to the Nolva…

I have taken nolva before which wasn’t directly after a cycle and I found my sex drive and libido to increase actually, maybe it was a placebo effect, I’m not sure… Or maybe because I wasn’t suppressed at the beginning of my nolva run?

[quote]jb99 wrote:
I have taken nolva before which wasn’t directly after a cycle and I found my sex drive and libido to increase actually, maybe it was a placebo effect, I’m not sure… Or maybe because I wasn’t suppressed at the beginning of my nolva run? [/quote]

So was it off cycle, but still during PCT? Or well off cycle for some reason?

It was off cycle and not during pct, I was trying it to reduce gyno as for some reason my gyno was worsening off cycle (horrible advice I received from a doctor during my first gyno consult) I asked about taking letro but he insisted on trying nolva … Luckily I found a much better doc and will be having my surgery shortly, but that’s off topic. During the time I was taking the nolva I did find my libido to be higher though, again I am not really sure why.