'Nobody Owes You Anything!'

[quote]magick wrote:
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I’m not sure what you mean by a leftist/liberal economic/financial position, because I don’t think such a position exists to begin with (besides possibly the whole “raise minimum wage to 15 USD!” in a city where the actual cost of sustainable living would require you to make close to 100k annually)

Afaik, current liberal positions on finance/economics is tied entirely to their social ideology. Their view of economic/finance is meant to support the social world they want to create.[/quote]

“Leftist economics” I a pretty vague term to begin with. Some may call Keynes-ism leftist, i.e. increase taxes when the economy is thriving so the state can make investments when things look dire.

The position you mention, however, IS leftist. Increase taxation to allow the state to support financially weak populations. It is also the reason I doubt that someone can be leftist on social issues and conservative on fiscal ones - how are you supposed to finance a welfare state without taxing businesses accordingly?

I’m a libertarian and I hold this position. What people generally mean when they say this is that they support things like gay marriage and other such issues. While a leftist would campaign for equality for all and demand that the government legalise gay marriage, a libertarian would say that the government should just stay out of it entirely.

[quote]Iron Condor wrote:

I’m a libertarian and I hold this position. What people generally mean when they say this is that they support things like gay marriage and other such issues. While a leftist would campaign for equality for all and demand that the government legalise gay marriage, a libertarian would say that the government should just stay out of it entirely. [/quote]

Gotcha.

I like some of the ideals behind libertarianism but I think they miss how much the world has changed since 1778. Government intervention, from my point of view, is necessary as a system of checks and balanced for very powerful corporations that simply weren’t around to the same extent 240 years ago (sure, there were things like the East India Trading Company). Someone is going to control aspects of your life anyway.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Myself for example, I’m pretty left on social issues

[/quote]

No, you’re not.[/quote]

lol. I’m taking your attention to this matter as a compliment.

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Myself for example, I’m pretty left on social issues, and pretty right on fiscal issues[/quote]

That’s funny considering how closely related the two are.

[/quote]

Sure, but you have to understand I do think in terms of “political reality” and “how it should be”. For instance:

I have yet to find a valid legal reason beyond “equal discrimination” for the government to ban Same Sex Marriage. Personally, I couldn’t find two shits to give if two people (shit or 3 or 4) people of the same sex want to get married, but from a governmental perspective, I don’t see the need in saying no. It isn’t 1500 where the infant mortality rates are high and the proliferation of the tax base the utmost importance. We’re breeding just fine, so fine in fact we celebrate the vacuuming of people out of the womb as a “right”.

So I agree that SCOTUS should have overturned Bill Clinton’s DOMA.

I think the War on Drugs is an abysmal failure. Street level people having their entire lives ruined because of weed is an utter joke. While I don’t sit here and say people dealing Meth, Smack and Crack should just be allowed to run around and pass this stuff out, maybe putting them in prison with violent felons isn’t the answer? Work camps maybe? I don’t know what the answers are here, but the current situation isn’t working, and it’s particularly harsh on innercity poor… Yes these people make a choice to sell dope, but at the same time, it’s different set of circumstances than some dude in East Bumfuck Iowa doing it. As there are less people on the hunt in East Bumfuck.

I have a significant amount of empathy for people with less, particularly children in poorer families. That is why I donate my time and money and would do more if I had it within my length. I just know that government intervention isn’t the cure, nor even close to an answer in every case. Things like WIC or Unemployment are good ideas. They are temporary, and in the case of WIC for very specific people and circumstances. Generational welfare… Is just keeping people chained to the government plantation and voting for the same people who’d rather keep them poor than have them vote for someone else.

I could go on, but I’d say the only “social” issue I’m right on is abortion. And that’s only because I understand basic biology and believe it is government’s job to protect the rights of it’s citizens, irrelevant of age, sex, color or creed.

I think crying about income inequality, from Americans, is laughably ridiculous in the vast majority of circumstances. (It also shows a 100% lack of understanding of basic economics.)

I think cries of “give me free shit” from the citizenry is very greedy and disingenuous, and only setting up a nation to fail, and fail hard.

I think the Left has a problem with people being self sufficient unless it’s sexually or driving a Hybrid car. Their stance on business regulation, civil-rights that aren’t sex related and other topics really irks me to be honest. And after growing up brainwashed into the left, time, reading and maturity has brought me much further right than I ever thought I’d be.

1 Like

Thanks for the reply. I’ll see if I can come up with something meaningful in return tomorrow. You do have some very valid points, I’ll give you that.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I think the Left has a problem with people being self sufficient unless it’s sexually or driving a Hybrid car. Their stance on business regulation, civil-rights that aren’t sex related and other topics really irks me to be honest. And after growing up brainwashed into the left, time, reading and maturity has brought me much further right than I ever thought I’d be. [/quote]

Oh no. Baby steps, my friend. Baby steps.

=D

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

So I agree that SCOTUS should have overturned Bill Clinton’s DOMA.

I think the War on Drugs is an abysmal failure. Street level people having their entire lives ruined because of weed is an utter joke. While I don’t sit here and say people dealing Meth, Smack and Crack should just be allowed to run around and pass this stuff out, maybe putting them in prison with violent felons isn’t the answer? Work camps maybe? I don’t know what the answers are here, but the current situation isn’t working, and it’s particularly harsh on innercity poor… Yes these people make a choice to sell dope, but at the same time, it’s different set of circumstances than some dude in East Bumfuck Iowa doing it. As there are less people on the hunt in East Bumfuck.

I have a significant amount of empathy for people with less, particularly children in poorer families. That is why I donate my time and money and would do more if I had it within my length. I just know that government intervention isn’t the cure, nor even close to an answer in every case. Things like WIC or Unemployment are good ideas. They are temporary, and in the case of WIC for very specific people and circumstances. Generational welfare… Is just keeping people chained to the government plantation and voting for the same people who’d rather keep them poor than have them vote for someone else.

I could go on, but I’d say the only “social” issue I’m right on is abortion. And that’s only because I understand basic biology and believe it is government’s job to protect the rights of it’s citizens, irrelevant of age, sex, color or creed.

I think crying about income inequality, from Americans, is laughably ridiculous in the vast majority of circumstances. (It also shows a 100% lack of understanding of basic economics.)

I think cries of “give me free shit” from the citizenry is very greedy and disingenuous, and only setting up a nation to fail, and fail hard.

I think the Left has a problem with people being self sufficient unless it’s sexually or driving a Hybrid car. Their stance on business regulation, civil-rights that aren’t sex related and other topics really irks me to be honest. And after growing up brainwashed into the left, time, reading and maturity has brought me much further right than I ever thought I’d be. [/quote]

Inch-perfect post.

The state has for centuries had an entitled view of its citizens, we don’t owe you a welfare state but are entitled to your taxes, we don’t owe you a good life, but you owe us your life via enforced conscription in wars that don’t benefit you between rival states, we are entitled to tax the shit out of you in order to build infrastructure, we are entitled to make policy against your wishes and use that tax money how we want.

Somehow none of this is brought up or measured against so called entitlements in the form of benefits, healthcare, public housing etc.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]polo77j wrote:

If by Zinn you mean conveniently focusing in on one aspect of a much more complex situation to further a narrative, then bingo![/quote]

lol, Yes maybe the Zinn dig was a tad much, but yes. The Meltdown had a whole lot of players, many of whom going back over many a Government Administration of both colors…

To blanket blame “evil Wall St Fat Cats” is beyond disingenuous, or ignorant of the topic… [/quote]

The left has a very disingenuous position regarding the economic meltdown:

Leftists pre-2008 : “We demand more loans to people from the bank, we demand more opportunity for people to get on the housing ladder, we demand equality in loans, first time buying chances and credit”

Leftists in 2015: “the fat cats were irresponsible giving out loans to people who did not have the means to pay back, they gave out mortgages knowing they would sink them, they gave credit knowing it had no chance of being paid back. This out of control system created by bankers and wall street made this problem for the people”

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Yeah, I figured. You said you’re a lefty. Actually taking a full account of history and perspective would ruin your world view. I get it.
[/quote]

The way you talk about “lefties” makes it look like you think “righties” as a group DO take a full account of history and perspective.

You’ve always seemed to be well-informed, so I’m curious if you actually think so…[/quote]

Painting broad brush here but it is what it is:

Also greatly depends on degree of right/left. If we’re to look at it on a spectrum extreme right is basically AnCaps. That shit isn’t going to work at all. Extreme left is basically totally government control. That shit is going to be worse. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle, and you need people that lean both ways in order to balance out the marketplace of ideas.

[/quote]

Beans, from what I have seen from your posts I like your no bullshit attitude regarding the politico’s on both sides. However I just wanted to touch on this here.

On the extreme right and left, those can also be slit between authoritarian far right, anti authoritarian far right and authoritarian left, anti authoritarian far left. Examples being:

Authoritarian far right - Fascism, extreme nationalism, historical examples being - Nazi Party - Franco regime - Regime of the Colonels - Japanese empire

Anti authoritarian far right - An Caps - Mutualists - Voluntaryism - Agorism, historic examples being limited due to the comparatively new rise of this ideology.

Authoritarian far left - Leninism, Maoism, state socialism, historical examples being the PRC - USSR - DPRK

Anti authoritarian far left - Left Anarchists, council communists, Anarcho Syndicalists - Socialist pacifist movement, historical examples being limited due to never having power but there are some like Solidarity union movement in Poland - Anarchist movement in Spain against the Francoists - Council communists and left Anarchists organising and rebellion against the USSR (most were eventually crushed, sent to the gulag or executed.)

I like you in comparison to the far right and far left am in the middle. I am also in the middle regarding the authoritarian scale, I believe in some government, but not too much.

The GFC is interesting because the left and right have polar opposite views on what caused it (the government didn’t do enough vs the government & Fed did too much). “The Financial Crisis and the Free Market Cure” by John Allison (former CEO of BB&T) is a good book that explains the latter perspective for anyone interested. If you are lazy you can probably read a few reviews online to get a general idea of his arguments since they would be too lengthy to type out here (and I have a finance exam I should be studying for).

[quote]DBADNB1 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]polo77j wrote:

If by Zinn you mean conveniently focusing in on one aspect of a much more complex situation to further a narrative, then bingo![/quote]

lol, Yes maybe the Zinn dig was a tad much, but yes. The Meltdown had a whole lot of players, many of whom going back over many a Government Administration of both colors…

To blanket blame “evil Wall St Fat Cats” is beyond disingenuous, or ignorant of the topic… [/quote]

The left has a very disingenuous position regarding the economic meltdown:

Leftists pre-2008 : “We demand more loans to people from the bank, we demand more opportunity for people to get on the housing ladder, we demand equality in loans, first time buying chances and credit”

Leftists in 2015: “the fat cats were irresponsible giving out loans to people who did not have the means to pay back, they gave out mortgages knowing they would sink them, they gave credit knowing it had no chance of being paid back. This out of control system created by bankers and wall street made this problem for the people”

[/quote]

There are a couple pillars involved here, and the problem is both systemic and long reaching. SHit we’re still doing it now, lol.

  1. People who signed for mortgages they couldn’t (or wouldn’t be able to if things changed) afford. The people who read their contracts and took out these loans are just as much at fault here as anyone else.

  2. Mortgage originators. Yes, they were pressured to give out shit loans, and gladly went along.

  3. Investment banks. They gladly wrapped up these garbage loans on inflated prices.

  4. AIG. The one thing the IB did correctly was insure all this garbage for when it defaulted. I hold AIG responsible for insuring all of it, and not saying no after awhile. It was a shit bet on their part, and a very significant portion of the resultant issue from the bubble bursting.

  5. Government & Fed. Fed held rates artificially low, and the government forced/pressured people to give these loans…

[quote]DBADNB1 wrote:
I believe in some government, but not too much.[/quote]

Government is a necessary evil. The Founders understood this, and thus tried to hamstring it as much as possible.

It’s sort of funny that a system set up to keep government restrained and “small” as possible has birthed the largest by light years, and one of the most expansive governments the world has ever known. (Some of this is due to technology, so the comparisons are to be had with grains of salt.)

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I’ll see if I can come up with something meaningful in return tomorrow. You do have some very valid points, I’ll give you that.[/quote]

Just a quick update: work’s been stressful and I can’t be arsed to write a long reply right now. Sorry :confused:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I’ll see if I can come up with something meaningful in return tomorrow. You do have some very valid points, I’ll give you that.[/quote]

Just a quick update: work’s been stressful and I can’t be arsed to write a long reply right now. Sorry :confused:
[/quote]

No worries man. It happens.

Another cheesy bromide that I’ve always hated is “…and no one can take that away from you.

It’s always used when someone makes it to third or fourth place as first place already knows they’re number one. It’s so stupidly obvious that after you win some award or achieve something that no one (at least no one without a time machine) can take your fourth placing in whatever event from you.

Anthony Hernandez still owes me $40 for some The Who concert tickets from 20+ years ago. Hear that AH? I am calling you out!

[quote]kineticj wrote:
Anthony Hernandez still owes me $40 for some The Who concert tickets from 20+ years ago. Here that AH? I am calling you out![/quote]

Probably my favorite post in this thread thus far … muy excelente

When I hear that I think of a lot of what I was talked about in high school and how for the most part, the educational system failed at helping young people escape that mindset. My classmates mostly just sat there and expected to be passively educated without taking an active role, like they were owed the knowledge yet didn’t want to do the work. I’ve kept in contact with some of them and they’re going nowhere in life. Not that I am, haha.

I don’t see myself as being owed anything as a 22 year old. If anything the millennial generation is smart and has a lot to offer, but is held back by financial issues such as paying rent in cities where it is almost impossible on minimum wage unless you are working 4 jobs. Still, I am not “owed” that. I have to work for my self worth, build it up and any deficit of my worth is a reflection of my failures, not anyone else’s. All depends how bad you want it.

Millennial are also limited by a tendency to get tunnel vision or sidetracked by things that don’t better their goals, like technology for instance. I actually all but shut down my Facebook a year ago (just kept it to keep in message contact with some people) for the simple reason that it’s mostly bullshit and a waste of time. It’s sickly evident how it is used as a cop-out for actually being an interesting or genuine person, because you don’t need to do that when you can create an image of one.

Luckily I was raised to think for myself and to question everything. Granted i should have gotten a clip on the head as a younger lad and it would have helped me evade some of my present struggles (as anyone who has read my other thread can attest), but I am getting there, and deep down, I care and I want to be the best version of me.

“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot…nothing is going to get better. It’s not.” - Dr. Seuss

I always look at that phrase as meaning I better make my own way in life because success is not owed to me. Respect, politeness, help in an emergency sure, but success? No, no one owes you that you must go out and get it on your own.

Just my take.