T Nation

NO Products, No Good?


#1

I've read that basically any NO product is a waste of money, but I wanted to know why.

I recently got a sample of some and tried it pre-workout and I feel that my energy levels are much higher and last longer than drinking coffee with the same amount of caffine.

So why is this stuff so worthless??? I'm clueless about most supplements since the only stuff I've ever taken is whey.


#2

Placebo?


#3

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 scoop (21 g)
Servings Per Container: 70
Amount Per Serving
Total Calories 30
Total Carbohydrates 7 g
Sugars 0 g
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine HCL) 25 mg
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Vitamin B12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 120 mcg
Calcium 330 mg
Magnesium 350 mg
Phosphorus 490 mg
Sodium 100 mg
Potassium 100 mg
Proprietary T.A.P. (Twin Action Pump) Blend
Arginine (As L-Arginine And AKG), BCAAs (L-Leucine, L-Valine, L-Isoleucine), Creatine Monohydrate, Beta-Alanine, Guanidino Proprionic Acid, Betaine Anhydrous, L-Aspartic Acid, Grape Seed Extract (Vitis Vinifera)(Seed)(Standardized For Polyphenols, Proanthocyanadins), L-Citrulline Malate, Gynostemma P.E. (Gynostemma Pentaphyllum)(Stems, Leaves)(Standardized For Gypenosides), Cinnulin PFâ?¢ Cinnamon Extract (Cinnamomum Cassia)(Bark)(Standardized For Trimeric, Tetrameric Type-A Polymers) 5045 g
Proprietary Metabo-MgP Blend
Magnesium Phosphate, Calcium Phosphate, Sodium Phosphate, Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Aspartate, Magnesium Citrate, Magnesium Glycerophosphate 3040 mg
Proprietary MyoPsych Blend
Tyrosine (L-Tyrosine, AKG), L-Phenylalanine, Anhydrous Caffeine, 2-Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE), Guarana Extract (Paullinia Cupana)(Seed)(Standardized For Methylxanthines, Caffeine), Yerba Mate Extract (Ilex Paraguariensis)(Leaf)(Standardized For Caffeine), Green Tea Extract (Camellia Sinensis)(Leaf)(Standardized For EGCG, Caffeine), Green Coffee Extract (Coffea SPP)(Standardized For Chlorogenic And Hydroxycinnamic Acids, Caffeine), Evodiamine, Vinpocetine 1555 mg

Ingredients

Carbohydrate Matrix (Glucose Polymers, Waxy Maize Starch), Citric Acid, Malic Acid, Natural And Artificial Flavors, Calcium Silicate, Silicon Dioxide, Sucralose, Acesulfame Potassium, FD&C Red #40. Ingredients may vary slightly by flavor. Each serving of vassive N.O.® also include a 7,000 Mg carbohydrate matrix of glucose polymers and waxy maize starch.

Suggested Use

Mix the contents of one Vassive-NO packet with 12-16 ounces of water (more/less water may be used to attain desired flavor concentration.) Mix thoroughly for 10-15 second or until contents are well dispersed. NOTE: Vassive-NO is a highly concentrated supplement mix and not all ingredients will ever completely dissolve into solution. Agitating the prepared liquid slightly during consumption will help suspend the ingredients long enough to drink.

Also states 125mg of caffeine.

Which part is a placebo? I want an explained answer, not one word.


#4

I won’t go line by line, but the major contents in there are 28 kcals worth of carbs, some vitamins, and a few aminos. Those carbs might help a bit for lifting, but everything else in there is either flavoring agents or not in a great enough amount to make any difference in your workout. The main thing that will help is loading up on some simple carbs and maybe some caffeine if you need a boost before you begin lifting.

Plus, NO product’s main thing is touting the importance of nitric oxide. They’re right, NO is very important if you want to lift well. However, your body can create more than enough of it, even under extreme stress, so supplementation is unnecessary. The primary function of NO, in terms of facilitating exercise in the human body, is to dilate blood vessels, allowing for increased blood flow. Unless you’re just really out of shape, your body can do this naturally within the matter of a few seconds, probably as a response to you doing your warmup.

I’ve never taken a NO supplement, but I would suspect that drinking some makes you suddenly feel amped up and ready to lift since your body gets artificially put into an exercise state even though you haven’t begun lifting yet. Just speculating, though.


#5

You can’t see the stimulants on that label?


#6

I think what you mean by worthless is that they do not directly build muscle. The idea with them is that they allow for more pump and therefore more blood flow to the muscle, supposedly bringing more nutrients with the blood and allowing the user to build more muscle. This we know is false.

However, most have caffeine/simple carbs/B-Vitamins that will give you energy. Also, some guys really enjoy getting that pumped feeling. If you have the money to waste on a pre-workout product then go ahead and buy some, but know that the pump and energy is not building you extra muscle.

Also, with most products like NO-Xplode you will develop a tolerance, when it first came out I took it before I worked out in the am because I am not a coffee drinker, and went from taking one scoop per day to 3 in a matter of a couple of weeks. Just about anybody you talk to that has taken products like this will report the same thing.


#7

There’s a long ass article on T-Nation somewhere about Arginine which will help explain why. Dave Barr wrote it so just search for it


#8

[quote]Xab wrote:
I’ve never taken a NO supplement, but I would suspect that drinking some makes you suddenly feel amped up and ready to lift since your body gets artificially put into an exercise state even though you haven’t begun lifting yet. Just speculating, though. [/quote]

This is how I felt. I basically felt very awake, but not the same as just drinking a lot of coffee. I actually felt better, not over caffeinated.

ungs9, thanks for your post.

I am tired of BS responses from people that have no idea what they are talking about, or quoting articles / studies w/o links (not my job to back up your claims, right?).

I was hoping for simply more energy as I feel run down at times and wanted to know why people consider this garbage. I take whey to rebuild muscle, not Nitrous Oxide “products” since that’s not the goal or proper usage of the product. I realize there is a tolerance that is built from taking anything, including caffeine. This is also dependent upon genetics as there are some people that can constantly take the same dose of something and not require more over time (this includes pain medications).

I guess the proper question as this point is… is there any worth while pre-workout supplement to take on the market?

I’m not looking for pump. I did not feel any pump w. I simply felt vasodilation and increased edurance from taking it. This was what I was going for.


#9

vasodilation…viagra…cialis…

Or you can go with beta-alanine…also SWF - Surge Workout Fuel…


#10

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:

I am tired of BS responses from people that have no idea what they are talking about, or quoting articles / studies w/o links (not my job to back up your claims, right?).
[/quote]

Not our job to give you information that has already been posted by a T-Nation Author. Look up.
Now look right. Enter your search query there.


#11

I snort NO-XPLODE, shit burns like hell.


#12

does Biotest make steroids? no but does that mean that they don’t work…?

don’t even think for a second im comparing the two but you get the point.


#13

I’ve had Surge workout fuel for a couple weeks now and have yet to even try it. The fact is I don’t need it right now. When I feel I do, I’ll cycle it in. I just started working out again 6 weeks ago and every workout is better than the last. The pumps I get are amazing on just creatine and protein alone.

On Wed I did lats and biceps and my biceps felt like the were going to rip out of my skin. Had I taken a NO2 product, I would’ve thought that was the “pump” you’re talking about, but the fact is I didn’t take a thing. There’s no possible way a NO2 product could’ve made it any better.


#14

[quote]Zackgsc wrote:
does Biotest make steroids? no but does that mean that they don’t work…?

don’t even think for a second im comparing the two but you get the point.[/quote]

I’m not sure I get the point. Unless you’re saying that since Biotest doesn’t make an NO product, that’s the primary reason that they’ve published articles downplaying it’s hype? Barr’s article on another website as well, although it wasn’t really advertised, more of a little blurb. I guess I’m one of the few that try to educate myself on WHY something works for me, rather than just to buy into marketing hype.

If you’re that intent on taking a NO type of product, go the bulk route and make it for much much cheaper. You’re paying out the nose for that nifty red bottle and BSN label. At the end of the day, if NO products make you work out more intense, even if it is a placebo effect, by all means have at it. It’s really no skin off my ass. Just don’t ask me to believe how amazing it is.


#15

not Nitrous Oxide “products”

Nitric Oxide…big difference.


#16

The feeling I got was different from caffeine and I’m certain that’s not a placebo effect, considering there’s a lot of active ingredients.

I’m not buying how the product as a whole has a placebo effect and no one’s shown why.

I think its better to just close this thread at this point.


#17

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
The feeling I got was different from caffeine and I’m certain that’s not a placebo effect, considering there’s a lot of active ingredients.

I’m not buying how the product as a whole has a placebo effect and no one’s shown why.

I think its better to just close this thread at this point.[/quote]

Look man, if you like it, that’s fine. No one’s telling you not to take it. We’re just saying that you could spend your money more wisely.


#18

Basically the placebo effect is what Aggro stated. If it gets you motivated to go to the gym and go heavy then have at it. I myself don’t need any motivation, I come out of the gym muscles shaking either way. The NO claim you can lift more for longer is useless to me, I don’t care how much weight I move. I do care how effectively I hit the muscle group I’m trying to work.


#19

I was simply hoping for an example of why its a placebo and to my knowledge, caffeine, most of the protein and the vitamins are NOT placebos.

If the point is to give you pre-work energy, say if you’ve had a rough start that morning, isn’t the product then working and not a placebo? That was rhetorical by the way, the answer is obvious.

I’m not taking anything in hopes to lift more, instead, just simply to have enough energy when lack of sleep was my main enemy the night before. I’m not a bodybuilder and have no desire to be. I’m a powerlifter and just want some extra energy.

Xab, what would you recommend? I own two tubs of ON Gold Whey, that’s it.


#20

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 scoop (21 g)
Servings Per Container: 70
Amount Per Serving
Total Calories 30
Total Carbohydrates 7 g
Sugars 0 g
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine HCL) 25 mg
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Vitamin B12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 120 mcg
Calcium 330 mg
Magnesium 350 mg
Phosphorus 490 mg
Sodium 100 mg
Potassium 100 mg
Proprietary T.A.P. (Twin Action Pump) Blend

Arginine (As L-Arginine And AKG) [/quote] Here are your pump agents, but they are PRECURSORS to nitric oxide - however your body produces NO in response to stimuli which elicits a cascade effect of second messengers which results in NO production. Has it ever been shown that taking more precursors of nitric oxide leads to vasodilation and/or greater NO production by the body? I dunno. If you are not getting enough arginine in your diet then perhaps supplements like these can improve blood flow by providing optimal levels.

[quote], BCAAs (L-Leucine, L-Valine, L-Isoleucine)[/quote]BCAAs are good, anti-catabolic, but there are not gonna be very many in here.

[quote], Creatine Monohydrate [/quote]Obviously this is good, though the central nervous systems effects it provides would be minimal. [quote], Beta-Alanine [/quote] Again, good, and can buffer H+ ions and delay fatigue. [quote],

Guanidino Proprionic Acid [/quote]

David Barr has written articles here on the dangers of this product, which is converted to creatine. Why it is in here, when there is already creatine in here, I have no idea, but most of these products include this ingredient even though according to Barr, it is potentially dangerous. [quote], Betaine Anhydrous,[/quote] Some research being done on Betaine for increased performance, think its also called trimethylglycine. May improve tissue oxygenation I think? Can’t remember, though. Not a stimulant to my knowledge. [quote] L-Aspartic Acid,[/quote] Amino acid. [quote] Grape Seed Extract (Vitis Vinifera)(Seed)(Standardized For Polyphenols, Proanthocyanadins)[/quote] This may supply resveratrol or other similar polyphenols and has something to do with nitric oxide production as well, may also improve tissue oxygenation I think which probably enhances endurance.[quote], L-Citrulline Malate, [/quote] Good stuff, Workout Fuel uses this too. [quote] Gynostemma P.E. (Gynostemma Pentaphyllum)(Stems, Leaves)(Standardized For Gypenosides), Cinnulin PFâ?¢ Cinnamon Extract (Cinnamomum Cassia)(Bark)(Standardized For Trimeric, Tetrameric Type-A Polymers)[/quote] Think these are all insulin secretagogues or things to improve insulin sensitivity.[quote] 5045 g
Proprietary Metabo-MgP Blend
Magnesium Phosphate, Calcium Phosphate, Sodium Phosphate, Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Aspartate, Magnesium Citrate, Magnesium Glycerophosphate [/quote] Phosphates…lol. [quote] 3040 mg
Proprietary MyoPsych Blend [/quote] Here we go the meat and potatoes, the MYOPSYCH BLEND! [quote]
Tyrosine (L-Tyrosine, AKG), L-Phenylalanine [/quote] Used by the body to synthesize epinephrine [quote], Anhydrous Caffeine,[/quote] Caffeine, duh. Phosphodiesterase enzyme inhibitor which will prolong cAMP elevations increasing the effects of things like epinephrine etc [quote] 2-Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) [/quote] DMAE is a popular nootropic, cognition enhancer. [quote], Guarana Extract (Paullinia Cupana)(Seed)(Standardized For Methylxanthines, Caffeine)[/quote] More caffeine and caffeine like substances. [quote], Yerba Mate Extract (Ilex Paraguariensis)(Leaf)(Standardized For Caffeine), Green Tea Extract (Camellia Sinensis)(Leaf)(Standardized For EGCG, Caffeine), Green Coffee Extract (Coffea SPP)(Standardized For Chlorogenic And Hydroxycinnamic Acids, Caffeine), Evodiamine [/quote] Another stimulant [quote], Vinpocetine [/quote] Increases oxygenation of brain tissues thus enhancing focus, concentration etc. [quote] 1555 mg

Ingredients

Carbohydrate Matrix (Glucose Polymers, Waxy Maize Starch), Citric Acid, Malic Acid, Natural And Artificial Flavors, Calcium Silicate, Silicon Dioxide, Sucralose, Acesulfame Potassium, FD&C Red #40. Ingredients may vary slightly by flavor. Each serving of vassive N.O.�® also include a 7,000 Mg carbohydrate matrix of glucose polymers and waxy maize starch.

Suggested Use

Mix the contents of one Vassive-NO packet with 12-16 ounces of water (more/less water may be used to attain desired flavor concentration.) Mix thoroughly for 10-15 second or until contents are well dispersed. NOTE: Vassive-NO is a highly concentrated supplement mix and not all ingredients will ever completely dissolve into solution. Agitating the prepared liquid slightly during consumption will help suspend the ingredients long enough to drink.

Also states 125mg of caffeine.

Which part is a placebo? I want an explained answer, not one word.[/quote]

You’re not experiencing a placebo, there are some valuable ingredients in there and as you have experienced, if taking this improves your workout versus not taking it, and you are not spending ridiculous amounts of money on it, then it can enhance your training and results if nutrition etc is on point.

Now…over time assuming your nutrition warrants it, would using this product or anything similar consistently allow for more strength and size gains over time versus not using it?

I guess it would if it allows for greater progression due to better focus, endurance, whatever.

I’d definitely do more research on the guanidino proprionic acid stuff though.