T Nation


DocT, Colin and every other American reading this thread. Please, don’t give this clown the time of day. With apologies to my francais buddies from Montreal, every Canadian kid who passes the 4th grade knows we were a British colony until 1876. Canada was not, well, Canada until just 127 years ago. So while “Canada burnt down the White House” might look great on this assholes T-Shirt, it simply is not true.

I really get pissed off when people try to forge divisions between the US and Canada. Yes, we are different countries, and yes, there are noticeable differences in the general mindsets of its respective citizens. But the differences are subtle, interesting (ate least in my opinion) and dare I say it, sweet. It makes travelling to one another’s nation interesting yet familiar. Canada and America have far more in common than they do in contrast, and it is the knowledge and respect of this fact that allows both nations to mutually benefit both economically and culturally.

I am Canadian. I don’t agree with a lot of what Non American is saying and in fact I agree with the war on Iraq, but I can;t stand idelly(SP?) by while someone insults my country. Sorry ain;t gonna happen. I am very patriotic and I think that insulting anyones country is fucking bullshit. That is the reason I do not respect Non American. I hardly think Canada is the least significant country in the World. Where would you be without our natural resources, our water, the fact that we buy most of the shit you produce. Who do you have the most trade with??? Hmmmmm could be Canada.

As far as riding america’s coattails…I think not. The Canadian economy has steadily been improving while the American economy is in decline. The Americans can’t produce enough brilliant people to be doctors or tech workers, so they have to fucking court our people and give them whatever they want just to get them to your country. So any scientific “breakthrough” that might come from America most likely has at least a couple Canadians leading the way.

As someone coming from Toronto I can’t believe you would say things like you said.
I could go on and on about reasons why living in Canada is better than living in the states but I don’t really care too waste my time on someone like you.
All I’ll say is that I have nothing against America, and I love Canada, but I can;t stand someone insulting it, so please just ignore Non American.

:slight_smile: groove

I go to Canada a couple times a year. I just got back from a few days up there. It’s a great country. The people, at least in the western part, are friendly and enjoyable to be around. As a matter of fact they seem to enjoy life and be far less serious about things than the average American.

Canadians have things to be rightfully proud of, just as we do. Some people think that being proud of your country and it’s good things automatically means that it’s OK to trash other countries and the things that make them different from you. It’s kind of an immature view but you still see it a lot.

Sorry dude. I was just trying to give the other guy a hard time. You had to know that most of it was a joke…figure skating, snow angels…etc… You do get my main point though, right? That these two countries would not exist as they do without each other. That’s why it’s particularly galling to have someone north of the border throwing around insults like that.

Hey now, Please don’t take my post as Canadian bashing! I work very closely each day with the great white north, my company is based in Canada, and I even drink Canada Dry. I just thought it funny that I heard the “We burned your white house down” story again :slight_smile:

Well, it’s been fun guys!

To date, not a single one of you has come up with a rational rebuttal to any of my arguments. My opinions against the war on Iraq were met with demands to know what country I was from, then you proceeded to flame my country.

What kind of "T-Men" are you that you can't come up with anything greater than the adult equivalent of calling me a poo-poo face?

non-american, your opinions aren’t so much opinions as regurgitated cliches that get kicked around the college campuses like a hacky sack. I could go on at length as to why the war with Iraq is just and it is the last resort in a long list of attempts to get them to join the civilized world but it wouldn’t convince you. There is no one size fits all solution to foreign conflicts. War isn’t always the answer, but peace isn’t always the best way to go either. To Saddam restraint is seen as weakness and negotiation is seen as indecision. Iraq has exhibited aggression many times in the recent past, Korea has not. Iraq denies having WMD, Korea is openly admitting they have a nuclear program. Each situation is unique and must be treated as such. Saddam rose to his position by murder, torture, and intimidation; what part of this makes him look like he’d be likely to enter into a civilized discourse in good faith?

While we’re at it, what exactly has the US done to the Muslim world to make them see fit to kill innocent Americans? Was it the buying of their oil from them at fair market prices, which OPEC sets? Was it our engineers teaching them to recover the oil after our geologists found it? How exactly are we oppressing our brown brothers of the Muslim faith? I’d really like to understand your view on this one. Facts only, please.


Here’s why OBL himself says they did it. Excerpts from bin Laden’s Letter to America.

i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

He wants us to follow the Shariah instead of our Constitution and laws we now have.

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

He wants us to abolish interest paying vehicles of any sort, like loans, etc.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

No beer, ‘nuff said.

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

I think he’s talking about not just betting on the track but the stock market too, even though he’s invested in it and a lot of the money his daddy gave him came from there.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

No Hooters? You can see the guy is whacked, or gay. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

It’s been well proven that HIV/AIDS came from the jungles of Africa, down the Kinchasa Highway, eventually to Jamaica, and on to the US and elsewhere. It was a damn sneaky CIA plot to plant it in such a remote area, don’t you think?

I just know this will be full of ??? instead of the correct stuff. Sometimes you just have to work in Word to get the thing written right, sorry.

Well I’ll admit right off that Osama Bin-Laden is a complete and total nutbar.

That said, he wasn't at all pissed off at the USA until he was betrayed at the end of the Afghan war. He was supplied with weapons and a means to fight back, but what's the use of fighting back when, after the victory, you have nothing left for a country?

Imagine living 10-20 years in a war-torn shithole that would have at least been developed to a degree by the soviets, but instead you fought back with the aid of an "ally" that left you to rot in the end. You'd be reasonably pissed off. Couple that with a fanatical belief in Islam and being the fifty-fourth child in your family, and you've got major issues.

Yes, they're fucking crazy. However, you don't just go and leave your "brothers in Jihad" or whatever to rot and die after they've served their purpose. Seriously, why else would a rich Arab boy care about how some "infidels" across the ocean govern their country? The whole thing just reeks of personal vendetta and he's using Islam to get people into his cult of anti-American terror.

Yeah, he needs to be taken out, just be a little more careful next time. When someone risks their lives for you, give a reasonable thank-you in return (ie; funding for infrastructure. A factory. An irrigation system. Anything.)

About the usury thing, in my ideal world that wouldn't exist, either. You would need more than cash to get rich off of cash. You'd have to buy something productive and use it to make more money. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Women's liberation, blah, blah, everything else he listed. Whatever. Arab countries only really have two major things to be pissed off about:

1.) Israel. Things were pretty much fine until the Zionists wanted Palestine to be "The Jews' Homeland!" How would we like it if suddenly tens of millions of Central and South American native peoples moved to Canada and the USA and demanded that the land be declared "The Native-American Homeland" and we were all kicked back to Europe?

2.) Saudi Arabia. It's the sacred homeland of Islam. No infidels allowed. America has thousands of soldiers of all faith stationed there. I don't agree with the idea that only Islamic people should be allowed there, but that's what the entire area believes and they're not going to change their opinion any time soon. It's like trying to get a Libertarian to accept Democratic Socialism. Just not gonna happen.

As for the Iraq situation, I hate President Hussein. He should be gone. Now. However, I don't trust the US more than I can throw it when it comes to "regime changes". You put Hussein in power, Augusta(sp?) into power in Argentina, and a man with less than 2% of popular support into power in Afghanistan (who incidentally is an ex-consultant for a major multinational oil firm. Negotiations on the pipeline are already underway).

If this actually were a war for peace and liberation of an oppressed people, then all the power to you. Unfortunately, it carries with it a whole lot of "US national best interest", which is not in the best interests of the Iraqi people.

“The Canadian economy has steadily been improving while the American economy is in decline” - Give me a fucking break dude, You guys are still pitching marbels while we’re rolling bowling balls. If you know what I mean? “Any scientific breakthrough that comes from America has a couple of canadians leading the way” - You can’t be fucking serious. And this is because we can’t produce enough “brilliant minds”? I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume you’re just lashing out due to patriotism. As in the past I have taken your posts seriously.

It’s cool dude. I understand what you are saying.
The culture of the 2 countries is so similar, and pretty much everything we do involves each other.
As long as your comments were in jest we are cool.

:slight_smile: Groove

You can’t be fucking serious. And this is because we can’t produce enough “brilliant minds”?

He’s referring to “the brain drain”. A high quality education is too expensive down there on account of being private. Ours is heavily subsidized by the government, so people get into University based on marks, not based on wealth.

So every time a Canadian graduates from medicine or engineering or physics or teaching, the US companies are begging us to move down there to work for them.

Tyke, I wasn’t lashing out against America, In fact if you read my last post to DCB you’ll see that I actually like America and in truth I am considering moving there after university. As far as the comments I made I was simply standing up for my country against criticisms from another.

I am sorry to say it but the American economy is nothing to be super proud of lately, and the Canadaian economy has been staedily improving. I think if you look back through the archives of any major newspaper(Canada or US) you will see many stories on the so called “brain drain” from Canada to the US. I am not saying these things to belittle the states they are simply a matter of fact. I also said them to defend the coments coming from DCb about us being an “inconsequential country riding on the coattails of the US”
If there is one problem I have with the people of America it is that as a country you are very arrogant. This isn;t to say I hate america or any bullshit like that, I don;t hate any country but I do hate when people insult my country.

:slight_smile: groove

Don’t ever come into my space. :slight_smile:

Israel, we support it but it was the British that partitioned it the way it was, and the India/Pakistan/Kasmir thing too. I know that both the Jews and the Arabs now taking the name of Palistinians (after the name of the area the Brits partitioned off) both have history in the area. If you look back far enough the Jews and Arabs are actually the same people but none will admit it now. There are a few places where the locals got displaced and eventually they get along without too much mayhem. The Chinese moved into Vietnam and pushed the Montanards (French name) into the hills. You have your First Nation and we have Native Americans, Australia has Aborigines, New Zealand has the Maori. The list is long, and bloody, but nothing like the Israel thing. Maybe the difference isn’t so much that interlopers have moved in but that people with a long standing feud have come back to their home turf.

Saudi Arabia. Our troops are there at the request of the House of Saud. They run the show there, it’s kind of a rule in monarchies. If they want us to go they could say so and we’d split in a flash. I notice there was no complaint about all the US oilfield experts that live and have lived for many years in American compounds in Saudi Arabia. I guess they only bitch when whitey is there to help protect them instead of just help make the rich richer.

I’m not big on nation building at all but it’s not all bad. I suppose something had to be done in Afghanistan because the tribal warlord thing is outdated and very well could lead to the resurgence of a Taliban-like “government” again. Once they get to vote they can change it more to what they like. The oil pipeline negotiations have been in the works for a long time and it benefits the Russians as much as anyone else. I don’t think we have to sweep up the mess we make in Iraq, but it makes the war look neater in hindsight. I don’t see a lot of people complaining about how Japan is governed now, even though we drew up the blueprint for the original democracy they use now after WWII. We are friends, trading partners, and allies with a lot of countries we’ve warred with in the past. That’s just how we do things. The Muslims claim to have long memories and fight over things that occurred generations ago, but that’s only true when the enemy is a non-Muslim. In Afghanistan the warlords can and did switch alliances often, even in the middle of a battle at times. Killing each other one minute and fighting beside each other the next…but only if it’s with Muslim bretheren. That is the crux of the whole issue. If you read OBL’s whole letter it basically says “be like us, including converting to our religion, our barbaric system of laws, and our mud hut way of life or die”. It isn’t going to happen and my prediction is that Muslims in many places will suffer because of this intolerance.

A weak swimmer jumping into a river to help a drowning victim isn’t helping anyone. A country has to look out for it’s national interests and keep itself strong and viable before it can be in a strong enough position to help anyone else. If we ran around helping everyone that needs it without concern for our own interests we’d either go broke or cease to exist. The old USSR fell apart because of a dogged mindset that failed to take into account their economic strength. If we can help others while looking out for ourselves we can do more good for a longer time. I wonder how many tortured Iraqis and those living in fear of torture, mutilation, and rape think that the US toppling Saddam is a bad idea. Look at his 100% support in the last “election”. That is a very telling point. People fear his secret police so much they don’t dare do anything but support the guy. Talk about people yearning to breathe free…

Actualy, Canada did burn down the white house.

Screw the arguing!

Let’s just say, that NORTH AMERICA, is the best continent on the planet.

I gotta back groove here, Tyke. Compared to the US economy, the Canadian economy is downright bullish as of late. Thats why Bush spent the first 30 mins of his Address talking about how he intends to turn the damn thing around. And by the way, Tyke- there are a heckuva lot of Canadians here reading this forum who you would probably be pleased to hang out with, train with, etc. Don’t make an ass out of yourself by trashing our country. Defend your nation, yes! Trash a friends nation? Not cool.

A couple of historical points:

1. What could be considered a fairly massive contingent of American troops were stationed in England during the Second World War. So, this was one instance where American troops were not killed when sent to your homeland.

2. One cannot begin to deny the importance of either Great Britain or the US during WWII, for the following reasons: A)the British would clearly not have had the economic resources to stop an Axis Juggernaut which controlled all of western and central Europe. B) It would’ve been virtually impossible for the US to help establish a foothold in Europe without using Britain as a strategic staging point.

My thanks for developing radar, though. Kickass invention which saved a lot of Allied lives.

Well shit, don’t I feel like an ass. Assuming NA was British without reading all the posts on the thread. Oopse!

I think Canadians bashing Americans and vice-versa is really funny. The countries are as close as it is possible to be and still be separate. For any of you that travel regularly, are there any countries that are more similar? I grew up on the border and regardless of how high any of us get our dander up, there are FAR FAR FAR more similarities than differences.

Non-american is probably French Canadian, and you have to realize that most of his vitriol comes from perfectly justified self-loathing. However, you will notice that there hasn’t been any REAL Canada bashing in return on this board (as compared to when say the German or the Frenchman came on and started talking shit), because the countries and their citizens are on such great terms and everyone besides non-american knows it. For a Canadian to wish so much ill upon the United States is like slapping yourself in the face because the countries are SO intertwined.

I would say guys like Magnus are more like the Canadians that I knew growing up – tough, thoughtful, and polite. Disagree with some of the stuff that the US does – fine – but to bring on the hate and the pissing match stuff is just idiotic.