T Nation

Next Cycle


First of all I would like to say thanks to everyone who helped me with my first cycle it was a great success and I got everything I wanted out of it. For those of you who want to know it was 60mg ED Oxandrolone with just 1ml of sust a week (went from weekly to biweekly injections after getting some advice from you guys).

Now I have gotten my Power to Weight upto were I want it I am now planning on running stronger strength cycle with some mass to go with it, esspecially since I am now able to get a lot more stuff. I will start with giving you guys my info:

Height: 185cm
Weight: 84kg/185lb
Age: 21 soon to be 22

Squat: 205Kg/451lb
Dead Lift: 185Kg/407lb (I have just recovered from a fairly bad back injury)
Bench: 110Kg/242lb

I am looking for as much explosive power to weight as I can get. I would not like to push my weight much over 90kg (max 95kg) as I need as much vert as I can get as being flexible and not awkward in the air.

I am planning on running 2 different 'roids again with this cycle, Oral and Injected. I am planning to run Oxandrolone again as it is a low risk Oral and I have experience in it now, although I will be using more. I hope it will help me to tell which one I am getting sides from if they occur. The other half of this cycle is Tren Ace, only at a low dose of something like 100mg EOD, preferably 50mg ED. So the frame work will look like this:

w1-6 Oxandrolone 90mg ED (I know its a lot)
w1-6 Tren Ace 50mgED/100mgEOD
40/40/20/20 Nolvadex PCT

Now my questions.

What would be the best thing to stop the Tren Ace progestenic sides if they occur?

Will that amount of Oxandrolone stop me from having Erectile Disfunction from the tren?

Is there any major floors you can see to my Strength Cycle?

Thanks, guys.


I give up.


I should have done more research before posting, sorry. I will come back when I have done more.


A few things to consider.

Tren and anavar wont have much synergy together. You wouldn't notice the var in the presence of tren, regardless of dose. Find a class two drug to use if you want to use tren. Lack of estrogen is another problem with your cycle.

Your first question can be easily answered through a search. Whether or not progestegenic effects result from tren use is debateable.

Erectile dysfunction is not a common side effect of tren use. Low estrogen levels may lead to a drop in libido but it isn't the tren directly.


Thanks that helped a lot.

I have been looking around since first reading your reply and I cant seem to find a substitute for Var that I can aquire. Nothing else seems to have the strength gain with the low mass gain. I think I will have to drop the Tren for Test (more then my last cycle) and run some Adex with that at .25mg EOD and just do it that way. The only Class IIs that I could find where either too risky for what I do or caused too much of a mass gain for what I want.

So it now looks like this

w1-6 90mg Oxandrolone ED
w1-5 1ml Primotest E3D (+1ml front load)
w1-6.25mg Adex EOD
40/40/20/20 Nolva PCT+.125mg Adex E3D through PCT

This was my original idea for my second cycle but was keen to try Tren considering how impossible it is to get in Aus (Fina H is illegal here). I guess I should stick to what I know for now. I guess this one looks much better?


Tren with low dose test would be a logical choice for your situation. Why are you so eager to use an oral steroid?

300-350mg TA per week + 250-300mg Test per week + AI is a simple solution.


Much better... however you need to know a few things to maximise the cycle you have started and also the help you receive.

Test'rone is generally considered a 'must have' base compound. This wouldn't be the case for some particular circumstances but i doubt you need to worry about those yet.

So firstly start with Test for all cycles..

The amount of which depends on your goal.. More Test = More results (up until a certain point where sides increase faster than gains but i wont get into that now)..

When writing the cycle plan, you need to tell us how many mg's of a drug you intend to use.. not just the volume (1ml). One millilitre of Primoteston can be 200mg/ml or 250mg/ml AFAIK.. so as you can see 1ml means very little.

Arimidex should be dosed relatively to the dose of Aromatising drug used.. for the majority around 4-600mg of Test a week will require around 0.25mg to 0.5mg per DAY.. it is rare for someone with that dose of test to only require 0.125mg/day. This is especially true if you are concerned about excess fat and water gain.. a high amount of AI will allow low/moderate amounts of Test to become really quite a 'lean gains' drug. I personally consider low moderate from 250mg to as high as 700mg.
Most users of TRT at 100mg Test a week will be happy with around 0.125mg adex a day, or 1mg a week.

You clearly desire a low estrogen level, and also a high strength increase... but you have stated that you do want some size.. upto 6kg (13lbs!!) of it as a matter of fact.. well it should be noted that even for those drugs that are considered 'sloppy mass gainers' like Anadrol or Dianabol.. where water is gained in abundance, this is temporary and post cycle you are left with whatever muscle you built and little else.
With a strict diet, dianabol and test (a traditional real bulk and size cycle) can produce a very desirable look with minimal water and fat gain and large size and strength increases.
Large is of course relative.. i consider a large muscle gain to be around the 10lb mark.. many others consider 30lbs large (but show me a drug that gives 30lbs lean muscle per 6-12 weeks and i'll show you the lord himself).

The point i am trying to make is simple, size is determined by food intake and little else.. if you eat in a caloric surplus to what you burn, your body (on AAS) will be able to build the maximum amount of muscle.
If you eat within your metabolic expenditure on AAS then you will forge a lean, hard and muscular physique - i have an inkling this sounds desirable to you..?
You should also be aware that with the goal you outlined strength and upto 6kg in size, you could run an all out bulk for 12 weeks and still fall short of your goal.. so don't be afraid to use 'real' drugs in decent doses.

Anyway.. down to the cycle:

Assuming the dose of Test is 200mg - and you can adjust if the dose is 250mg;

YOU wrote:
w1-6 90mg Oxandrolone ED
w1-5 465mg Test E (200mg E3D with 400mg Frontload)
w1-6.25mg Adex EOD
40/40/20/20 Nolva PCT+.125mg Adex E3D through PCT

I write:
w2-8 420mg Anavar (60mg ED)*
w1-6 500mg Test E**
w1-6 0.25-0.5mg Adex ED
Wk9-12 Tamoxifen 40/40/20/20

  • 60mg will give you the benefits of Var.. 90mg will too but at a higher cost with little extra. IF you have the extra money, add a little dbol at 2x10mg a day.. this would do wonders for this cycle. Tren would be preferred over var IME, but it is going to be harder to get as an underground product.
    ** Inject 215mg E3D with 650mg Frontload. You could inject 250mg E3D for ease of measuring of either concentration.. i would choose this over 200mg E3D. If you inject 250mg E3D then frontload with 700mg-750mg.

This is a good, solid, fully functioning cycle that will promote strength and size with control over fat and water. Add this to a clean diet that is high in protein and a committed lifting program and you will be very pleased.

As you can see, you nearly had it.




That was a great help

The Primotest I can get is 250mg per ml so that is a plus.

The only question I have now is about the Adex, I was advised that continuing Adex at a low dose through PCT would stop any E rebound, you stop it with the Primotest. Which is correct, or is it just preference?

So my cycle with everyones help is now looking like this.

w2-8 60mg ED Var (420mg EW)
w1-6 1ml/250mg Primotest E3D (3ml/750mg Front load)
w1-6 .25mg ED Adex (increased to .5 if E sides appear)
40/40/20/20 Tamoxifen PCT (with .125mg Adex ED/EOD if E rebound is seen as an issue)

Thanks for the help.


I doubt you will need to be concerned about a rebound. The half life of Enanth is 5-6 days.. and arimidex is a couple of days... by the time the AI is reduced enough to allow aromatase to 'rebound' there is not that much test to work with.

On re-reading my cycle, you are right. I should have made the AI stretch to the PCT - the reason i didn't was because i wrote a 1/2 cycle AI dose for the last 2 weeks (6-8) and then deleted it to keep it simple for you.

If you wanted (and i would, but couldn't be bothered to write it at the time) you could take whatever dose you are using during the cycle and half it for the 2 weeks leading upto the PCT. By this time there would be no supraphysiological levels of test for the higher levels of aromatase TO aromatize for a rebound.

Either way, Adex is not really needed through PCT and certainly not for estrogen rebound.. purposes.. just upto the PCT is sufficient, and if you wanted to be a perfectionist, a lower dose (of AI) would be used for the period between cycle and PCT as i described.



So with that advice I will say that my Final Draft cycle is like this:

w2-8 60mg Var ED (420mg EW)
w1-6 1ml/250mg Primotest E3D (3ml/750mg Front Load)
w1-6 .25mg Adex ED (upped to .5mg if E sides occur)
w7-8 .25mg Adex EOD (.5mg if previous dose is increased)
40/40/20/20 Tamoxifen PCT

Time for me to start getting this stuff together.

Thanks for the advice guys.



I am not attempting to arguing with you at all, but only trying to get a better understanding of the different types of Test. On this site and elsewhere, I have read that many people prefer Test Prop for 8 week cycles. In your opinion, is Test E the Test of choice for 8 week cycles?



Nothing wrong with asking questions mate.

Becasue propionate esters act faster than Enanthate, it provides results faster as peak blood concentration is achieved faster - allowing shorter runs.
It is purely personal, either ester could be used perfectly well for 8 weeks.. with enanthate being quite a bit cheaper, it is the common choice.

I like prop as results come faster, and recovery/down time is easier to achieve. I am using enanthate at this time as 1 vial will last 2.5 weeks rather than 1 vial of Prop lasting just 1 week (but costing minimally less).



On the Prop: I prefer it because I can start PCT 11 days sooner. If you did 3 8 week cycles a year, this is a month worth of days (33) that would wouldn't have to be 'half-way' on cycle. I like the drugs to do their job, and then quickly get out of my system so I can get back to normal.

As Brook said, Prop is a bit more expensive, but it isn't too bad.

Use the Adex from day one. Even if you have no sides, the test will be aromatizing. Adjust the dose depending on how you feel/how the sides are.


I was just reviewing the posts and I was just thinking, if I can get my hands on some D-bol would it be useful at only 20mg ED, and if so with it only having a active life of between 6-8 hours would I have to dose it 4 times a day(5mg) to really get anything worth while out of it?


How about this, sell/trade your anavar, get dbol instead.

Otherwise, You can 10mg dbol pre training, and 10mg post training, and take an additional 0.25mg of Adex for that day. Use it on days that you perform high volume/intensity training, e.g legs.

In my book, 30mg of high quality dbol is comparable to 50mg of test suspension injected daily, or 500mg test-e per week.

quote "I am looking for as much explosive power to weight as I can get. I would not like to push my weight much over 90kg (max 95kg) as I need as much vert as I can get as being flexible and not awkward in the air."
Do you play basketball or somthing? Tren + var is gonna kill your performance. Dbol pump can be a draw back too.

How about this:

Option 1:
All oral

30mg dbol + 50mg winstrol daily

You were prepared to take 90 var+50 tren anyway, so toxicity is not a issue for you.

Option 2:

Test suspension 50mg + winstrol depot 50mg daily

DHT + test, good stack

Optional 3:

Test suspension 100mg daily, 1st injection 6am, second injection pre-training

lots of adex

Feels great, super aggresive in the gym. Suck up the pain ! To be honest , i couldn't handle the injections after week 3. I rather do it in 2+2+2+off fashion. Rapid onset effect, minimal down time. suspension and winstrol are rather expensive.


You compare 500mg of a Testosterone Depot over 210mg oral Methandrostenolone a week?

Dbol is a decent drug (when adapted for comfort/effect in each individual person) and can cause massive gains during a cycle - all this i know you know, but cut to 4 weeks post cycle and compare the results of 500mg test and 210mg Dbol (all else being equal) and you will probably see a marked difference.

I agree though that dbol would be a very nice addition.. in a moderate dose of ~30mg/day.. good strength and size without it being overwhelming on the system.

I also liked your cycle ideas Meph.. i would add:

  • 30mg Dbol and 60mg Var

  • 50mg TP and 50mg Win

  • 50mg TP and 60mg Var

  • 30mg TRA and 30mg Dbol


  • 30mg TRA, 50mg Mast and 25mg Dbol

All high in strength gains, easily controlled water weight, good for real muscle over unnecessary bloat and fat, short acting-short cycle friendly.. of course TNE could be used (as you suggested) instead of the prop, but i mentioned Prop as it is more easily available, cheaper for most and less 'hardcore' (i don't see many people who are wary of muscle - a ridiculous statement when 14lbs is the 'buffer' - using Suspension..)



I am a gymnast that why need as much vert as possible.

I think maybe 10mg Pre+Post-Work out I would do.

I will see if I can get some but if not its no bigy by me.

The reason why I said that 14lb was the buffer was because I was using 60mg Var and gained 4Kg over a few short weeks! So I am a little edgy on AAS that are made to increase mass. I dont know why, but my body seems to really take to this stuff.


That is good news!

I actually forgot that you are in Oz, this pretty much means that you are most likely to be able to get Pharm-grade gear only.

Anadrol would be the next choice, and IMO actually beneficial if stacking with a non-aromatising androgen. Adding estrogen to Drol is what makes it very high in sides i believe, and this is also my experience too.


I just realised that your are a fellow Australian :slight_smile: I was involed in olympic sports. From a practical point of view, I would advise you to procure vet grade test-p, Virbac Tepro-Hormone, 500ml@100mg/ml. Exellent value, enough to do 1gram a week non-stop for one year. Definitely a must have for any "hardcore" user. Dbol pump can interfere with gymnastic training. So try not to use it.

Integrate your gymnastic training with your PED cycle. A low-moderate dosage of testosterone can really boost recovery. Around 350mg/week with 10mg of nolva daily. Is probably the cheapest, and most effective (for your sport) cycle at the moment. If you go heavy on your drug cycle, your performance is going to suffer, trust me on that, I have seen it first hand. Imagine yourself super-pumped up after warm up, stiff and all, you gonna fall off the horse (literally).

Primoteston E3D is also viable, but if you are going to use 583mg/week, make sure your adex are spot on, and do no try to bulk. Diet is everything. I recommend high carb high protein low fat diet, if you train 4 hours per day, eat no more than 4000 Kcal.

Just for reference, I have been on dbol only for 8 days, 20mg daily for first 3 days, and 10mg daily after. 2 weeks ago I was 105kg/231lbs, then I carb up for 1 week to 107.3kg/236lbs, after 1 week of dbol I am currently 110kg / 242lbs. Just to show that you can manipulate your body very fast. I was on a 40/40/20 diet.


Thanks heaps Mephisopheles those were words of gold.

I will make sure I have my Adex dose dead on target, I will take your advice on the diet also. I am currently training slightly less then normal because I am going finishing Exams for uni but will def be back on training fully and going hard by the time this cycle comes around. Thanks for the advice on the Dbol, I am thinking what I will do is just take 10mg Pre work-out (weights, not Gymn) and only then.

Huge thanks on the Vet Test-P, I will look around and see what I can dig up.