T Nation

New to it All


hey im new to the steroid world, i had one cycle in the past, just 8 weeks of dbol, i was ignorant to everything, never thought to ask around and what not.

so i have been researching for a strength and bulk cycle and the msot popular i have come across is

Sustanon mg/week--Dianabol mg/day-Twice day--Deca mg/week

week 1- 250--2*20--100
week 2- 250--2*30--200
week 3- 250--2*30--300
week 4- 250--2*20--400
week 5- 250--2*10--400
week 6- 250-- --300
week 7- 250-- --200
week 8- 250-- --100
total needed 8 vials 250mg sustanon
220 mg of dbol
10 amps of deca, 200mg amp

now the questions are

1) does 2*20 mean 20 mg twice a day? totalling 40mg a day?
2) what is an amp? unit of measure? or something else?

thanks in reply, any additional info that you want to add feel free


now 2*20 probably means that you have to take 20mg of dbol twice a day yes total 40 mg per day thats 280mg per week!!

an amp=ampule (in case you dont andrestand ampule is the container of the injectable drug usualy a small botle made of glass)

1 ampule of sustanon 250 contains 250mg of sustanon

also about deca you can mesure the portion yourself it also comes in an ampule

if you have decided that this is the cycle for you then go for it!!!

by the way what is your pct??pct is very important for your health and mental situation


JIMAKOSGIAN - who do you think you are telling this person to "go for it!!!"?

I am furious at your arrogance.

Please refrain from ever giving advice like this in this forum.. can i have a show of hands for those who are with me on this?

OP -

Test, deca and Dbol is one of the greatest cycles available for size and strength.

The doses are slightly off in the cycle, i actually mean to say that the construction of the cycle is about 15 years old. Knowledge of anavolic use has evolved massively meaning that cycles are constructed very differently these days.

I feel that you need to educate yourself a little more in order to make sure you are as safe and pro-active in your use of AAS as possible.

Whatever source you got this cycle from is outdated and is in need of extinction.

You are not ready to use this very complicated drug treatment for any reason yet. Please educate yourself and make sure all criteria are met before starting AAS use again.


1) Over 21 (25+ is preferable)
2) Well trained in your physical discipline
3) Diligent with nutrition
4) Educated with the application of AAS and their ancillaries
5) Educated to a basic level with the male endocrine system and AAS pharmacokinetics



I would say DO NOT GO FOR IT!!!

I agree whole heartedly with brook, not being mean but if you do not even know general terminology how will you be able to maintain a proper AAS protocol.

Please read more before choosing.


i am sorry i never meant to encurage him!!

but he said he already had a dianabol cycle and he doesnt know anything about it!!

so he is going to do what ever he wants no matter what you tell him!!

no ofence brook i dont want to make you furius!!


damelio you should listen to brook he seems to know what he is doing!!!


also by saying "go for it" i meant he could add it in his cycle if he ever decide to do it!!

but you brook seem to be misandrestanding alot of my posts prety damn fast!!

i can undrestand that you dont like me posting but thats not yor decision to make!!

if you belive i dont belong here you can tell me and i will leve the forum!!


Not being able to effectively communicate and us misunderstanding you are two different things.

Explaining some of the nuances such as what an amp is and what 2*20 means is all well and good but telling someone to 'go for it' when the cycle includes a pyramiding dosage of nadrolone that is almost twice as high as the test dosage at some points is irresponsible on your part..

OP read up on effective dosages of the particular drugs and how often they are to be administered.


There is no physiological basis to the idea of having to have any two androgens in a "ratio" with each other.

If someone wants to use Deca at for example 400 mg/week, and Dianabol at some reasonable dose, that does not mandate that he use testosterone in some ratio to that amount of Deca.

Deca has some crappy side effects that can include depression and limp dick, as well as having worse effects on recovery than most androgens probably due to both progestagenic effect and slow clearance, but it isn't the case that it's unusable without testosterone provided dose stays below the threshold where such effects are too annoying.


Your understanding of this stuff is much more advanced that mine so in no way is this post challenging your words but I was under the impression that nadrolone will cause suppression which will lead to the unwanted sides if a replacement dose of androgens is not present, in the form of test or dbol etc. Sorry for the run-on and please correct me if I am off base.


yea i saw pretty much the same cycle on about 10 different websites, i am stubborn and will probably do these three as a cycle, i am 24, in very good shape already, extremely healthy, i do not smoke nor drink, and have no medical sickness what so ever and have no history of it instead of the occasional diarhea from milk haha.

but from asking friends and what not about a good cycle for bulk and strength they strongly recommended dbol, deca, and sustanon. but i never really thought to ask the dosage at the time, im about 73 inches tall 87kgs.

i cannot get bigger for the life of me, i have been the same size for months now, i just seem to be building endurance and sclupting very well, i just need more size....

again any adjustments to the cycle, or if anyone has experience or knowloedge of the dosages i should be taking of the three please let me know


BONEZ217, you're right that nandrolone will cause suppression of the HPTA (the hypothalamus and pituatary being suppressed will result in testicular production being suppressed) but adding more testosterone on top of it does not reduce that effect.


Bill Roberts, I have some androgel and am considering applying phlogel over it to increase the absorption. Have you any experience with phlogel and androgel


I would do it this way:

1) With regards to the Deca (well myself I wouldn't use it at all, but in terms of what athletes I've written cycles for have liked and done well with) I would limit its use to no more than 400 mg/week, which most can tolerate, and limit its use to the first 4 weeks because it takes so long to clear.

Some are bothered by anything at or over about 200 mg/week but that is fairly unusual.

2) On the Dianabol, I'm sure there's nothing magic about the number 50, but 50 mg/day, preferably as 10 mg five times per day, is very well-proven.

There is very little issue with regards to increasing adverse side effects with combining the two above drugs except that both aromatize, and so a given person that might get away with either of these alone at these doses without a SERM (Clomid or Nolvadex) or aromatase inhibitor (letrozole or Arimidex/anastrozole) they might well not get away with combining both of these without using such drugs to counter this effect.

3) On testosterone, more gives more results, but if no ancillary drugs are taken to correct aromatization and DHT-conversion side effects, for a fairly novice user about 750 mg/week is a reasonable place to draw the line, as more than that will tend to be much more obvious for side effects.

With regards to combining with the above drugs, estrogen is even more of an issue. I wouldn't combine T with either of the above at these doses, let alone all 3, without dealing with the estrogen issue.

On the DHT issue, dutasteride does a great job. It isn't expensive, and isn't hard to get from overseas pharmacies.

If taking care of estrogen and DHT issues then one can run more T than the above if desired.

On cycle length: Everybody wants it NOW or in the next few weeks. But it's much better judgment to plan in terms of what will get me better results at the one year point from now, the two year point from now, etc.

So for using the same total amount of drugs and being "on" the same number of weeks per year -- and you've got to make such things equal in comparisons for the comparisons to mean anything -- let's compare doing 12 week cycles to doing 8 week cycles.

With the 8 week cycles you can do for example January-February, May-June, and Sep-Oct as your "on" months.

This will get better results than what you're limited to with the 12 week cycles, in which you could do for example Jan-Feb-March, and Jul-Aug-Sep as your "on" months.

Two reasons:

1) The earlier weeks of a cycle give more results than the ones at the tail end of a long cycle.

2) Recovery is faster from the 8 week cycles.

Another reason to do it this way is that recovery issues, if proper PCT is used, are almost always about zero with 8 week cycles but very often are issues even despite PCT with cycles as long as say 12 weeks.

Lastly, I would not "taper" the cycle. Of course you will see so many that do it that way and assume they did better on account of it, but for sure there is no need with an 8 week cycle, for sure the actual result is more weeks of suppression, and for sure the taper is a dosage that is unnecessarily weak if you are going to be suppressed that week anyway.

Better to be fully "on" and gaining as fast as possible, or fully "off" and recovering natural T rapidly and pretty seamlessly than to be in limbo for unneeded extra weeks.


Pahogan, no, I don't, I'm sorry.


No no I know that, I was just saying that adding in an appropriate amount of Test of Dbol will prevent the limp dick and other negative sides from nadrolone. Instead of just using a low dose of nadrolone and dealing with the sides, Test and/or Dbol should be added to relieve the negative sides and make the whole thing more pleasureable. This is what I was getting at when I suggested the OP use more testosterone than he had originally planned.


lol! This seems to be a misconception on this site in massive proportions.

The amount of times i have repeated this myself..

Anyway, i agree that there are no set ratios of compounds for the reasons given, and i have ran a number of successful deca only cycles and would recommend it to others.. with certain other drugs being necessary of course. I will also admit to blindly following mass belief briefly in order to make a point to this poster i fundamentally disagree with - which was wrong of me.

My issue with JIMO was that he is all too willing to not only explain things that should not need to be explained to a steroid user, but to 'egg on' uneducated decisions that may bring sides not considered by the OP.

IME the deca would most likely be very tolerable with the test dosages in this cycle, however i think it needs to be explained in full why deca can be an uncomfortable drug when there are no or proportionally little exo androgens used (proviron, test, mast...).

I disagree fundamentally with anyone on this or any site giving candid advice and instruction to another when the advisor in question is little more experienced or educated in the use of AAS that the advisee.



Yes, agree with all those points.


Bill i would appreciate it if you could explain something for me/us.

On this site one of the common recommendations is to run a drug with a longer ester for a proportionately long time, for example, enanth-8 weeks plus.. cyp and deca-10 weeks plus, undeclynate-12 weeks plus etc etc.

Now it is very rarely admitted to that the med/long esters can produce great results in 6 weeks. But i have personal experience of this being the case... Both with Nandrolone Decanoate(6wks) and Testosterone Cypionate(7wks)

Now, you mentioned that you would run the deca for 4 weeks in this cycle suggestion, so as to give it time to clear, but even that seems a little short for max results IME.

I understand the logic between running a longer cycle for a longer ester, as it takes that much longer to build peak steady blood levels, (is this the direct reason results come quicker with prop than with cyp?) - but could you please explain the reasoning that a long estered steroid would be effective enough to bother including for just 4 weeks (which wont even have built steady levels in that time - unless frontloaded)

I am wondering what it is that makes a drug effective in the short term if it has a slow releasing ester? Would you frontload? And If it isnt peak stable blood levels that determine when results come thick and fast - then what is it?




Has anyone mentioned injection frequency and half lifes of the Sust. Listen to Bill Roberts. I would suggest trying to have EOD injects of the Sust. If not EOD then M/W/F.

Also, I agree with Brook. Do not encourage this. Encourage research.