T Nation

New Split/Peri-Workout Nutrition


Recently Changed split to:


And I am finding I am getting tired mid way. Would like to use some sort of peri-wo protocol for better recovery/growth. I have seen that post-wo carbs are not recommended and am looking for input from those knowledgeable.

1)How would you set up carb intake when training early (8 AM)?

2)Does no carbs Post-Wo mean no carbs immediately after, not until 1-2 hours after or the rest of the day? and would that change depending on when you train?


What does the rest of your diet look like?

Plazma. Or, are you following carb back loading?

Your info is not quite accurate.


183 lbs
BF% low enough to see abs and quad definition.

Macros: 2800 calories, 40/40/20 with small fluctuations.

I am eating around maintenance to very slowly cut so, would like to peri-wo on point.

Not following Carb Backloading

Would like to try Plazma/MAG-10 but, can not afford it right now. Is there a "poor mans" substitution?


If you run out of juice during your work outs, you are not eating enough or your timing is off or the wrong kind of food.

Oatmeal and a whey protein shake, for me, was my go to 1 hour before work out, for years.

I did BCAA's during for a long time (xtend comes to mind). Or whey and dextrose worked pretty good (i don't have a sweet tooth, so didn't really like it).

you might be working out at 8am, but we don't know what time you get up....

Post work carbs was/is a very good way to get your nutrition at a crucial time (Surge Recovery). It is "better" before and during (if you follow the Plazma protocol), but post work out carbs and easily digestible protein is still very much viable and used.


Really? Most have said no carbs post.

I get up at 7 AM get to the gym at 8 AM begin around 8:15. That is one of the reasons I want a good protocol with fast acting carbs as I do not want to get up earlier just to eat a full meal.

Other days I train anywhere from 2-4 pm


Post workout carbs are fine, BUT, you would still find a lot of experienced folks who count on getting the majority of their carbs before and or during as opposed to saving them for post. The simple reasoning is because they find it more positively impacts their peformance.



Does post in these discussions mean immediately after, 1-2 hours, or the rest of the day?

When training late it is easy but, training in the morning makes it hard to go carb less the rest of the day.


Good point. Still, I guess it all depends on the individual, their daily routine, and what range of carbs their system can handle.



Though difficult in your opinion would it be best to go carb less the rest of the day? Just veggies.


Only performance? What about building muscle or losing fat?

I mean if you have 300 g a carbs a day would eating all 300 or just 200 and saving 100 for after make a difference in intensity? Seems like 200g would be enough.


I think it depends on the situation. For example, if I were in a cut, and approaching it in a cyclical manner (some days lots of carbs, some days very few), the last thing I woul want to suffer would be my time in the gym. That's key when you're cutting because if the body is given a reason to maintain the muscle (training), you stand a much better chance of the ingested nutrients going there.

As such, on a lower carb day, while the majority of meals may be comprised of lean protein, healthy fats and veggies, the carbs will be focused more around (a meal or even two before, or even during, training). On higher carb intake days, some people may opt for all of their carbs in these important times. Others, usually those who can handle a greater amount, may still try to focus on those key times to support their gym performance, but let's face it, you can only cram in so much before it's not making any more of a difference, or possibly you don't feel especially well.

I remember during a few of my later preps, when although I was getting a serious amount of carbs before and during my training, I still had to have some with other meals throughout the day, simply because if I tried to ingest too much in the shoirt window before training, I'd actually feel sluggish. Getting 400-500g on my higher days allowed me to spread things out a bit more.

Of course if you are dieting on lower carbs on all days, then IMO your best bet would simply be to keep them where they will provide the best benefit.

I think the bottom line, is always going to be the balance of times of the day when you're running more off glycogen vs times of the day when you can lean a little more toward ketogenic metabolism. As Dr K always said, both are always going on, but in different ratios. If done correctly, you can create times of the day with environments to support muscle, and times of the day that will allow for fat loss.

As long as you're doing enough to maintain muscle mass, it's up to you how much you wanna push to see if more carb-less meals affect your composition moreso than hoping a little muscle gain from higher carbs would.



By performance, I mean what you're doing in the gym to stimulate (and maintain) muscle mass. Some people, typically those who either carry more muscle mass, or possibly are just used to eating a higher carb diet year round, can get away with a higher #. If 200 is enough for you, then by all means, go ahead. Like I just mentioned in the previous reply, I would keep a lot right before I trained, and then spread the rest around. THere's no way I could down 450g of carbs and then hit a squat session. I just felt too sluggish.i.

Be open minded, pay careful attention, and you may be surprised at how much more you may be able to play with how you position them throughout the day, and what kind of a difference it could possibly make.



Thanks, Stu.


When I train in the morning I use a carb cutoff at night. When I train in the afternoon or evening I don't have carbs until lunch time. I usually have at least 1-2 high carb meals prior to lifting.

Intra workout you have a lot of options
Gatorade/dextrose/designer carbs

Or a premade mix as is offered on this site.

At risk of speaking outside my profession, If you have a solid amount of PRO in your preworkout meal you should still have aminos floating around while you are working out. Which makes just using a carb, like Gatorade, to help increase your stamina the cheapest option.


What about using just Leucine in the drink instead of BCAAs?


BCAAS have been shown to not do very well by themselves. That isnt all the AAs the body needs for building. EAAs on the otherhand is all of the needed AAs as long as enough leucine is in it. MTOR will be fully stimulated then. Leucine only again meets the same problem as just BCAAs


If you are eating enough protein in your pre-meals or though out the day would Leucine still not be enough or do you want all aminos during training?


I've never used just BCAAs because it doesn't make sense to me when EAAs or hydroslates are available for the same/similar price. Using just Leucine IMO doesn't make sense over using a complete protein or an EAA powder.

IMHO Raw materials>"signaling"


The idea behind taking them in around your workout is to stimulate protein synthesis and then be able to actually have building blocks for it. BCAAs isnt a complete building block set and neither is leucine. EAAs have been shown to out perform BCAAs in every study i have seen.