T Nation

New Protocol From New Doctor

Hi
I have been on this forum for about 4 yers but I am not that active as I would like to be. I am now seeing a new doctor. He is starting on a protocol that I have never tried before. He wants to start me on blended testosterone which is testosterone cypionate 160mg/ml and testosterone propionate 40mg/ml all together is equals 200mg. So with that being said I am now taking 40mg of this blended testosterone and 50mg clomid every third day. He also has me taking 25mg dhea before bed and 100 mg pregnenole. My question is has anyone ever heard of taking testosterone along with clomid at the same time. Before I was taking this protocol I was taking 20mg a day of T cypionate and 250I.U every other day of HCG.

These are the meds he wants me on

These are the labs from my old protocol that I stopped last week

Yes, by people that don’t know what they’re doing.

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How were you feeling on the protocol that you got the bloodwork from?

I’m curious about how you felt with that Free T level.

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Sounds very familiar. Nearly identical to the protocol my original hormone doc prescribed. Except that I was doing 180 IU HCH 3X per week. Toward the end, he wanted me to try clomid (similar dose and frequency) as a replacement for HCG. I did it for a while but asked to go back to HCG because I didn’t like how I felt on clomid. We never did follow it up with LH or FSH labs to see if it actually worked.

First, I’d really appreciate it if you could post follow up labs on the new protocol that include LH and FSH. I have yet to see anything published on the subject or even anecdotal case study labs in forums like this. Does clomid help to overcome the negative feedback of TRT? In theory it might, since E2 is the predominate feedback hormone for contorl of gonadotropins, but as I said I have yet to see ANY data supporting the use of clomid while on TRT.

Secondly, regarding the blended T, the dose, and the frequency. I think E3D dosing is optimal for a variety of reasons, so that part is good.

Thirdly, regarding the use of T-prop blended in with T-cyp. It does change the dynamics of dosage calculation and the kinetics of absorption, so it’s difficult to compare mg for mg to T-cyp. T-Prop packs a larger payload of T per mg than T-Cyp because the ester is smaller. T-Prop is 83.7% T while T-cyp is only 68.2% . This makes it difficult to compare to T-cyp on a mg basis. Also, T-prop releases it’s payload about twice as fast of T-cyp, which affects the kinetics of absorption. Here are some calculations from my notes. Basically, you get about 2% more T per mg dose from the blended T than you do from T-cyp and part of it is delivered much faster.

180mg T-Cyp/mL = 180 X .68248 = 122.8464 mg T/mL
20mg T-Prop/mL = 20 X .8372 = 16.744 mg T/mL
TOTAL T = 122.8 + 16.7 = 139.5 mg T/mL

200mg T-Cyp/mL = 200 X .68248 = 136.5 mg T/mL

My experience, you ask? Basically, I see no benefit to the blended T and I’ve migrated to pure T-cyp.

Regarding the total dose of T, given that the blended T is only about 2% more rich in T that T-cyp, I think we can take that part out of the equation and compare the two doses on a mg basis. You are currently injecting 40mg E3D which equates to about 93mg/week. Your prior protocol was 20mg/day = 140mg/week. I can feel the difference between the two protocols.

At 93mg/week, most of my Low t symptoms are abated and my labs are all squarely in the upper end of the normal range. It’s a good starting dose. HOWEVER, I do feel better with a higher dose. I did the following dose-response experiment and monitored my Free T and in the end concluded the (FOR ME), my optimal dose is around 125mg/week in and E3D protocol, and my maximal dose is around 140mg/week. When i go above 140mg, my free T goes into the superphysiological range and I don’t think that’s a good thing to do in the long run. But i do feel better at 140mg than 125mg, I believe this is mostly because it helps me recover better from my workouts, which I conclude is bordering on anabolic steroid use, not TRT.

I hate to break it to you, but testosterone IS an anabolic steroid. And fwiw, even when I was on only 100mg test per week, near the beginning of being on trt, I recovered much better than I did when I wasn’t on trt, with my total t around 170.

Just because 140mg per week MAY be optimal for you, that doesn’t mean 250mg per week can’t be optimal for someone else.

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I never said it was not an anabolic hormone. Not sure where you get that I said that is was not an anabolic hormone.

What I did say was that for me 140mg is more than I need to abate low T symptoms but I feel better because I recover better from workouts. This i consider anabolic steroid use of testosterone rather than TRT.

That’s a good point and an interesting one. The question is where does one draw the line at replacing testosterone to a “normal” level vs supraphysiological levels. Is injecting testosterone at a dose which places you are 2000ng/dL for a day or two and puts you at 900ng/dL by the end of the week considered PED use?

If we go by the “normal range” of 250-1100ng/dL, it would seem so. Yet we say a level of 300, 400, 500 or even more is an unacceptable level though it is within the range. If one does not accept 500 as normal, can you accept 1500 as normal? The lower number of 250 is not OK, but 1100 is?

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You said that 140mg per week is “bordering on anabolic steroid use, not trt.”

If you’re using testosterone for trt, it is anabolic steroid use.

Just because it’s 50, 100, or 200 mg per week, that doesn’t make it not an anabolic steroid.

I guess going with the point I was making, all trt is PED use. Testosterone is a drug that enhances performance. If it didn’t enhance performance, then what’s the point of taking it? My personal opinion is that in an ideal world, the amount of test one injects, should be up to the individual.

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Does anyone know a 80 year old on trt?

I see plenty of men in their 70s and 80s happy and active. I don’t think there on trt. Where do we stop? Would a t level of 300 be ok at that age?

Yeah, I suppose. If you look at it like that then almost every drug is a PED.

Testosterone is a hormone and while it is only legally available by prescription, it isn’t a drug. However, when you cross the line and take more than a “natural” dose, you are taking it for a drug effect. Question is, where is that line?

I’ve seen some who advocate massive doses of vitamins for health benefits, like 10 grams of VitC a day. There are approximately 50mg of VitC in an orange, so one would have to eat 200 oranges a day to get that much VitC. How “natural” is that? Point is, if you take 10,000mg of VitC a day you are taking it for a drug effect and it is not natural.

More to our point, at what dose are we taking testosterone for a drug effect? I really do not know. Not sure I really care, but I know 500mg a week is. I know 50mg a week is not.

I do.

Some of them are, you may be surprised. But, yes, if they are not and if they are happy with their lives and level of activity, who’s to say there is anything wrong with that? Lifestyle choice.

“We” do not stop. However, if you’re 80 and happy with your energy level, strength, lifestyle, and a test level of any number you chose, yes, it is OK. I think if you took almost any guy with a level of 300, and gave him testosterone which puts him at 800, he won’t want to go back to 300. So many guys tell me they really did not appreciate how bad they actually felt until they started TRT.

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I simply disagree with you. Not sure why you need to carry on this conversation. When one uses more T than is necessary to abate symptoms, it puts it into the anabolic steroid use category. There’s no judgement intended on my part, it’s simply a statement of fact that for me, I need about 125 mg/week in an E3D protocol for symptom abatement. When I go higher than that, I can push myself harder in the gym. That’s anabolic steroid use, not TRT.

Are we done with this conversation?

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I believe that one needs to find the point where one’s low T symptoms are fully abated. This can come from trial and error, but I recommend a systematic dose-response approach. Some guys need more than others, particularly if they have high or low SHBG. However, going beyond symptom abatement for the sake of performance enhancement is not TRT. No moral judgement on my part is intended, but just call it what it is.

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You may want to do a simple google search on that. It’s a DRUG, classified as an androgenic anabolic steroid, class 3 substance in the US.

I guess I’m just trying to get you to understand the simple fact that testosterone IS an anabolic steroid. It seems that you’re saying that it’s only an anabolic steroid over xxx mg per week. Again, any testosterone use is anabolic steroid use, BECAUSE TESTOSTERONE IS AN ANABOLIC STEROID.

We can be done with this conversation any time you don’t want to continue. I just think it’s an interesting discussion.

Why do you think injecting a blend containing propinate every 3rd day is ok? As much as I know as a rule of thumb the frequency must be determined by the fastest ester in a blend

Note the word “Substance”. It is a hormone, as the good doctor noted. There isn’t separate classificaton system separating hormones from drugs in the eyes of the law, but that doesn’t mean te lawyers know better than the medical experts.

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Exactly. Some are better performance enhancers than others. That’s why I think it’s bullshit when people think Barry Bonds shouldn’t be in the HOF, yet Willie Mays who admitted to using PEDs(amphetamines) is safely enshrined. Bonds was a better cheater, because he had something better available to him. But Mays was a cheater too, by the same definition.

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This is true, however you have to understand that anabolic steroids have also been stigmatized in a court of public opinion much higher than amphetamines. There is a certain level of politics at play there. A big game of CYA if you will.

If a major corporation, say like the MLB or the NFL, were to condone such a highly controversial substance, then what do you think that would do to their fan base (which is a very high percentage minor children) and profit margin?

Make no mistake, these decisions, like EVERY OTHER DECISION made about anything by a corporate entity, is 100% based on how it effects the bottom line.

Second subject…

To @youthful55guy’s point, I think you are misunderstanding the point he is trying to make, which is a fairly valid one.

Think about it like this. If you take opiates post surgery to help cope with the extreme pain for a few days until your body is able to heal and calm down the overreacting nerve endings, then you have just used drugs for a therapeutic purpose and that falls within the realm of what is considered acceptable.

If you use that same drug as a means to get high, or to deal with other internal problems that have no need for such measures (or problems that most normal people deal with on a daily basis, and are able to deal with in a much healthier fashion), then you have crossed the line and are now in the world of abuse.

Same with testosterone. If you use a dosage that is just high enough to overcome the problems that are caused within your body as a result of low T, then you are therapeutically using testosterone. When you use testosterone to go beyond that, and “enhance” or go to unnatural levels of strength and recovery, then you are using testosterone as a “drug” to compensate for your need to to better than you could ever naturally be.

So to @highpull’s point, where is that line? I guess that can only be answered by each individual according to their own moral foundations, and what levels are required by that individual to abate low T symptoms.

I tend to agree btw with @youthful55guy on this. I don’t judge those who wish to push the limits, but I will warn them about possible dangers of playing with fire, and seriously advise them to examine within themselves as to what other deep rooted issues may be driving that insatiable urge for more, more, more, especially when that urge drives them to do things to themselves that could cause irreparable damage in the long term.

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