T Nation

New Judo Rules

I thought I might as well make a thread so we can say how Judo is going downhill fast and the IJF is filled with world class retards. There are some improvements like over time can go on forever, ne-waza ground fighting won’t stop if it goes out of bounds but they completely took out leg attacks. You used to be able to attack legs only if countering certain attacks. Not anymore. No touching legs, ever…ever.

http://www.intjudo.eu/News/cikk2389

I’d have gone the other way with it and opened up those leg attacks without high risk of permanent damage. It’s not like classical judo didn’t have them (or more ne waza for that matter). Judo could be made more compatible with mma without betraying its roots.

They’re trying to differentiate it from Greco and freestyle I guess, in addition to making it “more watchable”.

Here they go breaking my heart again.

If I was still competing, those new rules would have fucked my game up. What is the beautiful Judo art turning into?

Jigoro Kano must be rolling in his grave.

kmcynyc posted this in my thread about…ok I don’t know exactly what to call that. But here is a good post about the judo rules that got lost in the wtf.

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
here is a link to the new rules PDF

http://lexfridman.com/...hrough-2016.pdf

same site this guy has a layman explanation

http://lexfridman.com/...013-judo-rules/

actually aside from the hand fighting - they are not that bad.

the last time they changed I think early 2009 was so Fucked up
[/quote]

In the comments after the blog post in the second link there was discussion about how Judo is supposed to be about spiritual enlightenment and development and as such should not concern itself with use in other avenues of competition. Essentially that those who would want judo to be modified or to function as a feeder/base for mma are the one’s to make Kano spin. My judo history may be a bit shy but considering Kano used challenge matches with jujutsu to “prove” his system, and that his guys had training other than judo I am not following that train of thought.

Regards,

Robert A

Judo IS an incredible base for MMA… It needs to be changed for MMA, just like it needs to be changed for no gi.

I think what needs to happen is this… We need to figure out what the difference is between the spirituality of Judo, vs. Tradition.

I love my first sensei, but I’ll also never forget the times I saw him and his high level students go along with some KI bullshit where he was supposedly making himself as light as a feather, and as heavy as a bolder. Student would be able to pick his fat elderly ass up when he was pretending light as a feather, then couldn’t pick him up when he went into stone mode… I’ll not say his name out of respect and love. Just bullshit is bullshit and we HAVE to admit to it.

Judo has a ton to offer in terms of self defense, being able to stay on your feet, while placing your opponent on his or her back during an MMA fight, or a street brawl or combat situation can save your life, be the difference between victory and defeat. The level of grip strength, hips, balance and timing are such special things developed, they are skills that are too good to not be common in MMA, that take most of us years to develop.

We can keep our traditions just as Jitz practitioners do, maintain gi judo, but more energy needs to go into developing a no gi judo based discipline for mma and for modern times. What happen when your opponents shirt rips and he’s slippery? Maybe it won’t be a complete skill set, but the meat and potatoes standing/clinch and throw aspect of no gi needs to be developed just like it was done with Jitz on the ground. If it is done, it will become a staple for mma, it has the potential to be that good and we all know it. Maybe someone needs to take it over and rename it, or add another name to it so it’s different than traditional judo. Like with Bjj, maybe it can be called Judo Americana or something.

We need to start treating judo like it really is… It’s part of a bigger family of martial arts…

Saying Judo should modify its rules or focus because of mma (as if every Judoka wants to do mma at some point) is like saying boxing should do the same. Judo is a sport. You play Judo to play Judo just like you play basketball to play basketball or baseball to play baseball.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Saying Judo should modify its rules or focus because of mma (as if every Judoka wants to do mma at some point) is like saying boxing should do the same. Judo is a sport. You play Judo to play Judo just like you play basketball to play basketball or baseball to play baseball. [/quote]

Judo is a MARTIAL ART, you fucking retard. Why do you do judo? It’s to fight. I’m fine with “playing” (you mean fight) Judo, but the original Judo had tons of stuff that has now been taken out because the retards extraordinaire at IJF think Judo is too much like wrestling.
The thing that attracted me to Judo is that it’s just like wrestling, and just like BJJ, except it has more. If Judo had the original rules in set, then it would be probably THE most “realistic” [grappling] martial art. The rules ain’t too bad this time, but telling someone they can’t undo a grip with both hands and all leg attacks are hansoku make is retarded.
They should unban the previously banned attacks and allow leg attacks again. The simple solution to this is to prevent leg attacks from scoring points, except for the monster ippon ones like kata guruma.

FUCK.

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Saying Judo should modify its rules or focus because of mma (as if every Judoka wants to do mma at some point) is like saying boxing should do the same. Judo is a sport. You play Judo to play Judo just like you play basketball to play basketball or baseball to play baseball. [/quote]

Judo is a MARTIAL ART, you fucking retard. Why do you do judo? It’s to fight. I’m fine with “playing” (you mean fight) Judo, but the original Judo had tons of stuff that has now been taken out because the retards extraordinaire at IJF think Judo is too much like wrestling.
The thing that attracted me to Judo is that it’s just like wrestling, and just like BJJ, except it has more. If Judo had the original rules in set, then it would be probably THE most “realistic” [grappling] martial art. The rules ain’t too bad this time, but telling someone they can’t undo a grip with both hands and all leg attacks are hansoku make is retarded.
They should unban the previously banned attacks and allow leg attacks again. The simple solution to this is to prevent leg attacks from scoring points, except for the monster ippon ones like kata guruma.

FUCK.[/quote]
Martial Sport. You do Judo to compete in Judo, under Judo rules. A kid doesn’t join the HS wrestling team to fight but to wrestle.

I’m not saying Judo can’t be a self-defense or fighting system but that if you want to do Judo for those reasons you need to find a school that teaches Judo with those applications in mind. Good luck. Or you could just do BJJ as you will have an easier time finding a BJJ school that addresses those applications.

And I do mean play Judo as Judoka are also called Judo players.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Saying Judo should modify its rules or focus because of mma (as if every Judoka wants to do mma at some point) is like saying boxing should do the same. Judo is a sport. You play Judo to play Judo just like you play basketball to play basketball or baseball to play baseball. [/quote]

Judo is a MARTIAL ART, you fucking retard. Why do you do judo? It’s to fight. I’m fine with “playing” (you mean fight) Judo, but the original Judo had tons of stuff that has now been taken out because the retards extraordinaire at IJF think Judo is too much like wrestling.
The thing that attracted me to Judo is that it’s just like wrestling, and just like BJJ, except it has more. If Judo had the original rules in set, then it would be probably THE most “realistic” [grappling] martial art. The rules ain’t too bad this time, but telling someone they can’t undo a grip with both hands and all leg attacks are hansoku make is retarded.
They should unban the previously banned attacks and allow leg attacks again. The simple solution to this is to prevent leg attacks from scoring points, except for the monster ippon ones like kata guruma.

FUCK.[/quote]
Martial Sport. You do Judo to compete in Judo, under Judo rules. A kid doesn’t join the HS wrestling team to fight but to wrestle.

I’m not saying Judo can’t be a self-defense or fighting system but that if you want to do Judo for those reasons you need to find a school that teaches Judo with those applications in mind. Good luck. Or you could just do BJJ as you will have an easier time finding a BJJ school that addresses those applications.

And I do mean play Judo as Judoka are also called Judo players. [/quote]

Martial sport or martial art: still has the word martial up front. Judo is self defense, it just has been sportified. I started Judo to do Judo, and Judo includes leg attacks and everythin else that has been taken out.

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Saying Judo should modify its rules or focus because of mma (as if every Judoka wants to do mma at some point) is like saying boxing should do the same. Judo is a sport. You play Judo to play Judo just like you play basketball to play basketball or baseball to play baseball. [/quote]

Judo is a MARTIAL ART, you fucking retard. Why do you do judo? It’s to fight. I’m fine with “playing” (you mean fight) Judo, but the original Judo had tons of stuff that has now been taken out because the retards extraordinaire at IJF think Judo is too much like wrestling.
The thing that attracted me to Judo is that it’s just like wrestling, and just like BJJ, except it has more. If Judo had the original rules in set, then it would be probably THE most “realistic” [grappling] martial art. The rules ain’t too bad this time, but telling someone they can’t undo a grip with both hands and all leg attacks are hansoku make is retarded.
They should unban the previously banned attacks and allow leg attacks again. The simple solution to this is to prevent leg attacks from scoring points, except for the monster ippon ones like kata guruma.

FUCK.[/quote]
Martial Sport. You do Judo to compete in Judo, under Judo rules. A kid doesn’t join the HS wrestling team to fight but to wrestle.

I’m not saying Judo can’t be a self-defense or fighting system but that if you want to do Judo for those reasons you need to find a school that teaches Judo with those applications in mind. Good luck. Or you could just do BJJ as you will have an easier time finding a BJJ school that addresses those applications.

And I do mean play Judo as Judoka are also called Judo players. [/quote]

Martial sport or martial art: still has the word martial up front. Judo is self defense, it just has been sportified. I started Judo to do Judo, and Judo includes leg attacks and everythin else that has been taken out.
[/quote]

Damn. Are you two trying for paradox here?

Normally zercarlo is getting all kinds of grief for every yahoo that takes BJJ, removes anything and everything that isn’t legal in a strict BJJ tourney, and runs a class where 90% of the sparring/rolling is done from the knees. He is constantly pointing out that BJJ should include striking/standing techniques/self defense.

I honestly believe he gets incredulous that anyone identifying as a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu/Gracie Jiu-jitsu fighter wouldn’t know how to deal with biting, gouging, etc. because it appears that he has always been around it. Meanwhile for the rest of us most classes/schools that self identify as BJJ have about as much of that stuff as Tai Chi. He points out that not all BJJ is directed for sport only, that Vale Tudo sure as shit includes how to deal with someone that wants to hurt you by any means available, and BJJ has an enviable history in “real” fights. Honestly, he catches a lot more shit than he should.

In this thread he is leveling the same criticisms at Judo and Blaze gets to talk about how Judo contains atemi kata, many joint locks that have long been banned in competition, and is a martial art FIRST. Of course he is doing this while I am confident we can find Judo dojo’s where only IJF scoring techniques receive any real training time and atemi is worked maybe once a year. I know several judoka/judo players(I have heard and read both and I have never been told either is considered pejorative in the greater community) that openly admit they never worked newaza until BJJ got popular.

In one case a judo black belt flat out admited he “didn’t know what to do on the ground” rolling with another grappler whose primary source of groundfighting was the old Gracie/Kukuck tapes(I’ve been around this a while. I am getting old. Stop fucking laughing zecarlo! There was a time what those tapes were all that could be had in fly over country.)

Really, this an impressive amount shift.

Now, as for Judo considering MMA:

I really do think that the IJF would be wise to consider bringing back leg attacks. Judo is a martial art, and I am sure there are teachers who approach it as such, but it is also an Olympic sport. Judo competitors that do well in other venues(MMA, no-gi, BJJ) help further build popularity. I think if the IJF keeps trying to regulate out “ugly” techniques they are going to wind up being further marginalized vs BJJ, Sambo, etc. and it doesn’t have to be that way. At the very least allowing all the takedowns that also are allowed in sport BJJ gives judo dojos a chance at “cross training” dollars.

Regards,

Robert A

Thanks for linking that RobertA

I dunno- I went for years to a judo school that is pure kodokan
this is a place where ‘blue’ gi’s -while welcome-
were thought to be to ‘new fangled’

however this place also had a BIG emphasis on newaza and plenty of joint lock goodness
there is no - back room judo
however the keru obi classes and above are just a bit faster paced and have
a bit more graceful violence

If you want to win- or just compete you need to be fully aware of what ever the rules are
if they cramp your style or impact your game then you need to learn how to cheat

During the last big shake up- I was like WTF

this one is ok particular the lifting of time limits

If you want to apply Judo to MMA take off the jacket and pants and figure it out.
the deal with Judo its kinda formal more so then BJJ

Its still a good base for any grappling

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
If you want to win- or just compete you need to be fully aware of what ever the rules are
if they cramp your style or impact your game then you need to learn how to cheat
[/quote]

Kmc’s is the most practical statement if you still want to compete in Judo.

Sadly I feel like a combination of many of the above posters, the Judo I know and love isn’t really Judo anymore.

I grew up in a Kosen school and most of my early coaches were Eastern European (and later on South American), so I’m really “old-country-ugly-Judo” where just about anything goes I guess. Newaza and leg grabs are in my DNA’s hard drive (I think I’ve said this before lol). To be honest I’ve stopped paying attention to all the rule changes because I don’t think they represent the real spirit of Judo, so I try to carry that tradition within myself and teach it to my fighters. I think back to Kimura and Maeda as examples of this, they were constantly learning and evolving to become better fighters, always adding from other martial arts.

I hate to say it, but I think the Olympics ruined Judo.

Classical fighters are always gonna hate on the leg attacks because judo was originally about big throws. Its too bad that they’re trying to stop the sport from evolving. Regardless, most of the best Americans and Europeans use a lot of leg attacks so its not good news.

[quote]Jelly Roll wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
If you want to win- or just compete you need to be fully aware of what ever the rules are
if they cramp your style or impact your game then you need to learn how to cheat
[/quote]

Kmc’s is the most practical statement if you still want to compete in Judo.

Sadly I feel like a combination of many of the above posters, the Judo I know and love isn’t really Judo anymore.

I grew up in a Kosen school and most of my early coaches were Eastern European (and later on South American), so I’m really “old-country-ugly-Judo” where just about anything goes I guess. Newaza and leg grabs are in my DNA’s hard drive (I think I’ve said this before lol). To be honest I’ve stopped paying attention to all the rule changes because I don’t think they represent the real spirit of Judo, so I try to carry that tradition within myself and teach it to my fighters. I think back to Kimura and Maeda as examples of this, they were constantly learning and evolving to become better fighters, always adding from other martial arts.

I hate to say it, but I think the Olympics ruined Judo.

[/quote]

Eh you can probably say the same about any of the combat events in the olympics.

Boxing too, the run and tag nature of the scoring system coupled with the furious pace favors a certain type of fighter and those fighters have incredible difficulty transitioning to the pros

Check out freestyle judo in the AAU.

http://www.freestylejudo.org/index.html

It’s the anti-IJF.

Already checked em out…but they’re in fucking Australia. I would totally jump on a Canadian version.

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Already checked em out…but they’re in fucking Australia. I would totally jump on a Canadian version.[/quote]

Umm.

It looks like the regional championship is in Ohio. Which is in the United States. Where are you getting Australia.

I have been to Ohio and am reasonably sure it wasn’t in Oz. I mean there was plenty of beer, so that was similar, but there were a hell of a lot more guns around than I think Australia has. Plus, way fewer angry and poisonous animals. I have been in lake Erie, and I didn’t have to contend with sharks, box jelly fish, blue ring octopus, or any of that shit. Just a little bit of dodge the medical waste.

Regards,

Robert A

My bad, I was looking at something else.

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
They should unban the previously banned attacks and allow leg attacks again. The simple solution to this is to prevent leg attacks from scoring points, except for the monster ippon ones like kata guruma.

FUCK.[/quote]

I thought they removed things like ashi garami because they had a very high incidence of popped knees and dislocated hips. Same thing with waki gatame which got banned from standing (at least for a while) because people would try to apply from too far away and blow out the guy’s wrist. Point is that sparring should be safe enough that people want to get into the ring…

And standing kata garuma is very much an only-in-the-ring technique unless you are getting attacked by overly-tall super lightweights. (Original version was pulling someone off a horse when their hips were already roughly shoulder height.)

$.02

– jj