T Nation

New Guy (Second attempt)


Hello all... A few months ago I joined this forum and asked what I should take to help me get bigger without really doing any research... As a result I was boo'd off the stage by many of you... Just wanted to come back and thank you all for that kick in the rear... I read all the material you recommended and now realize (more than ever) that this a complicated yet rewarding rewarding experience if handled correctly...

Here's the problem... I have been lurking all this time trying to learn as much as possible and now I know alot about usage, prepartion, injection, etc... but still very little about what I should take... I guess it depends on my goals, but when I try to compare to what guys on here post it seems everyone has a very different opinion... To be honest I don't know where to turn... Everyone locally can tell me where to get good product and all the other things I already know, but everyone has there 2 cents about what I should take, how much, and how often... It's a little discouraging...

So I'll ask again... I'm 27, 6'1, 180 lbs... My body fat is around the 15-18% mark... I've worked out for years (more weights than cardio) and have seen good results considering little to no supplementing (a little creatine here and there).

I'm not working right now and have all the time in the world... Got a nice "parachute" from my previous employer and won't have to work for a long while...

I'd like to get down to about 10% BF, and show more of my hard earned muscle while at the same time putting on lean slabs of new muscle... What do ya'll recommend?


Did you have any ideas of what you thought you might like to try? You would probably like a tren/test cycle.


If you've done all this research you know the answer you're going to get. Just use test for 8 weeks. Kick it off with d-bol for 4 weeks. Have nolvadex and clomid and know how to use them.


See what I mean... two guys, two slighly different answers... slight enough to cause confusion for a beginner...

Anyone want to agree with one of these guys or add another factor?


I'll give the answer you don't want to hear.

You just admitted that you're basically a beginner. You need to get your diet in order and your training in order before you go near AAS. Given your current stats, you have no business touching anything other than a heavy bar and food.

Don't take this as me being anti-steroid. This is me being anti-steroid for people who aren't in the position to be using yet.


I said this may be confusing for a beginner, I didn't say I was one to lifting, to AAS yes, but not to lifting... and all my stats tell you is that I have a little extra body fat, but I'm far from Fat, and plenty of guys on ASS have BF much higher than mine... I was just proving that no matter where you turn, everyone has a differing opinion, there is not hard fast rule for your first cycle I suppose, but to a beginner this is a challenge... and all people tell them is hit a heavy bar, eat right, that's BS bro and you know it... How many guys that have taken any AAS do so because they have exhausted any and all options to grow by natural means or from training and diet alone? Now ask, how many do it for a jump start, a little kick, or just because they don't have patience to wait 10 years to see the results they want? I understand the second needs to re-evaluate their priorities, but lets face it... guys want to look good, and feel good, and get laid... not all of us a training for Mr. Olympia...

So again... good advise and a solid regimen of beginner (new to AAS, not lifting) AAS use would be the appropriate response, not some self ritious BS about how people less worthy than you should take AAS... You did it for the gold at the world juniors I'm guessing? Just answer the friggin question man!


bro, you did the research, now come up with something based on that research and tell us what you plan, then we can critique. go to meso, it gives you a description of what everything is and what it may do. Also look at some of our previous, current and planned cycles, and goals associated with them.


I was just think 8 week of test with all the necessary anti-e afterwards... Not sure why the one uy a few posts up thought d-bol for 4 weeks was a good idea... maybe he can elaborate?


I'll try to help you out a little. I'm just going by what you posted for your stats and seems maybe a little off. At a height of 6' 1" and 180 lb. yet 15-18% bodyfat and you say you know what you're doing as far as working out, it seems at that height and bodyfat %, you really don't have much muscle on you. Normally for someone in that bodyfat range, people are going to tell you to get your diet in order and start doing cardio which you said you don't really do before you start anabolics. I would agree. But as I said if this is what you insist i'll try and help. Bottomline is if you're trying to lose bodyfat and put on some muscle, no matter what you do, you're going to have to start eating clean. I would probably try and stay away from the major androgenic drugs such as anadrol,dbol,test,sustanon. I think probably some winny,fina,eq,deca,primo would be more what you need.I would keep it at 6 weeks duration, 8 at the most. Start doing cardio first thing in morning or after your workout(not before)..and workout 5 days a week for no longer than 1 hour. I'm sure someone here will disagree, but this is my opinion because of you're bodyfat % and what I percieve you're goals to be. Hope this helps.


Wow, you're a grumpy one. The reason I said you didn't need to use anything is because your lean body mass for your height is pathetic currently. You don't need AAS. You need to eat.

And nothing about my post was self-righteous. You put yourself out there on a public forum, and you're going to get answers you like and answers you don't like. You just didn't like mine, although I'm quite correct in what I'm saying.

If you did plenty of research, then you'd be able to construct a simple cycle without a problem. The problem is that you want things now, and you don't want to work for them. You're everything that is wrong with roid users that screw it up for everybody else.

And what was with the pithy comment about how and when I used anything? What hat did you pull that rabbit out of?


Have you tried Mag10? It can be a very effective interim step and all the research is already done for you.


Look BS,

These guys are all trying to help, but to be honest, at 6'1" 180lbs @15-18%bf you're not carrying a whole lotta muscle.

The reason that is an issue, is that you should naturally be able (for your height) to attain at least 200lbs naturally.

I was stuck at a certain bodyweight for years (I'm in my 30's) and when I found T-mag and all the info here, I put on a solid thirty pounds in about six months using nothing more than creatine, protein, and food.

Now if your T-levels are in the normal range you should be able to pack on muscle without resorting to steroids. If you can't make gains naturally, then steroids probably aren't going to do much for you.

Steroids are not magic, you still have to know what you're doing.


You sarcastically remarked:

'How many guys that have taken any AAS do so because they have exhausted any and all options to grow by natural means or from training and diet alone'

This is the exact definition of an intelligent AAS user. If you want to be an unintelligent AAS user, I guess that's your choice, but I wholeheartedly agree with DocT in that you're the type of guy that fucks it up for the rest of us.

We're not telling you this to be mean; we're trying to: 1. help you, and 2. stop the spreading of misinformation and soforth that plagues the steroid world. If you don't know the first thing about a proper diet while natural, exogenous androgens are not going to help you, period.



Yeah I guess my numbers were a little off... but I didn't intend to bite anyone's head off or appear grumpy... I just wanted to point out that things can get confusing on here really quickly if you listen to everyone's differing opinions... but that's how we learn I guess, by listening and evaluating...

I explored some other AAS that the guy above mentioned but it turns out they're very hard to get here in Canada. Any other thoughts... or is winny the only way to go to lean out... From what I've seen it's one of the best for that.


Big smoke read up on first cycles. It talk about getting bodyfat below 11% and using
t-dawg 2.0 prior to juicing Iron dog.


All of the previous posts have a point.

The following cycle is for research purposes only. In yor current situtaion I DO NOT reccomend you start but I figured I could help you along with your research by posting a popular first cycle.

Ok so as far as your cycle research I would reccomend you start with a simple Test/Eq/dbol cycle. Test @ 500mgs/week, Eq @ 400mgs/week for 8 to 10 weeks; and (optional) Dbol @ 30mgs every day for the first 4-5 weeks. Run arimidex through the cycle and have clomid for Post Cycle Therapy. Now remember the AAS is only a part of the equation the Diet is still going to be the largest factor in your results.

Also go read the Steroids Newbie Thread.


The article steroids for dummies has some cycle combinations in it. You need to do more research to understand why you would stack one steroid with another - what is the benifits? - how are they complementary? For now I would recomend you continue working out naturally. There is no magic pill out there. Taking steroids and looking good is not directly because of the steroids, it is due to a very sound knowledge base of diet, training, supplementation, and steroid use and unfortunately for some - genetics. For now, I would recomend you learn how to diet, loosing fat while keeping lean muscle. Once you have lowered your bodyfat to reasonable levels like 12-9%
Then focus on gaining lean muscle naturally. Learn to use supplements correctly - some work and can give you a good boost like creatine and others like nitrox-type are all hype. Once you have gained at least 25 lbs of lean muscle -which should put you in the range of 190-200 lbs at said bf levels, then consider AAS use.


I am not going to sit and preach and tell you all this and that on how and why you should not use. WHY? Because you already heard why. I can understand the difficulty in choosing. I remember having to make that first choice myself but YOU are going to have to be the one to do that and then go from there. That is where all the research you did comes into play. It does seem like you have your mind made up on this. I would say in my opinion that you are on the light side for your height. I am 6ft 1in and weigh 245, age 33 next month. This is where you should be at IF you have the experience that you say you do. Not bagging on you. This makes me not want to help because I am skeptical. I am having difficulting understanding that you have been training for a period of time, have a good stature, yet have low body mass and(considered to us) mid to high bodyfat %. It is my opinion that you did not start out being skinny and if you did you let yourself get overweight and went a period of time without training. It is my opinion you have very little training/dieting experience under your belt. Something is just not clicking here is what I am trying to say. Help me out, what is it? Remember, it is not the years of training it is the miles earned. You could go years of doing the wrong things, making no progress.


Hi. Thanks for the help so far... I'm re-evaluating my diet as per many recommendations...

My diet is currently based on the TAP from Men's Health... I got my BF measured today at the gym and it's 11.6%. I've been eating well for a few years and very strictly since I bought the TAP book about a year ago.

My PWO shake consists of Whey Protein, 5g Creatine, flax seed, safflower oil, almond butter, bananas etc... Some guys say this prevents the absorption of the protein but I can't stand the taste of the whey alone... Should I be adding glutamine to the mix... You guys got any good PWO shakes you want to share... I'm all ears!


I tell you what. I want you to do a search on Massive eating and appetite for construction. You need to figure out your RMR (Resting Metabolic Rate) you can type that in the search engine too. You will find what you need. You need to be eating some serious fricking calories and hitting the weights hard and heavy. I MEAN HEAVY. Do not worry about the juice. Do not worry about your body fat as of now just do not let it get out of control keep it under 15% and you should be OK but you have to eat like you are not used to eating. IF you were to use anything I would say Equipoise and test only. EQ 600-800 test@750-1000. Plenty of Arimadex and clomid for recovery. I have never had my balls shrink so I never needed HCG and I have used this cycle before. EQ will make you eat and give you slower but keepable gains.