T Nation

New Faith in CA Schools


Just a bit.

I went to drop off my youngest at the K-6 School she goes to for a Girl Scout meeting tonight. In a 5th grade class window the above flag was covering a large window!

I’m sure it will be taken down soon, as soon as someone complains, but the fact it was there for a whole day is a great thing. I’m sending the teacher a Thank You note.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Just a bit.

I went to drop off my youngest at the K-6 School she goes to for a Girl Scout meeting tonight. In a 5th grade class window the above flag was covering a large window!

I’m sure it will be taken down soon, as soon as someone complains, but the fact it was there for a whole day is a great thing. I’m sending the teacher a Thank You note.[/quote]

This is great news, perhaps not all teachers are the liberals the politicans make them out to be.

So in all seriousness, what do you think about politics in the classroom (especially when the kids are that young)? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it seems like I hear an awful lot of accusations of “brainwashing” and “indoctrination” levelled at “liberal” teachers. What is acceptable and what is not?

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So in all seriousness, what do you think about politics in the classroom (especially when the kids are that young)? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it seems like I hear an awful lot of accusations of “brainwashing” and “indoctrination” levelled at “liberal” teachers. What is acceptable and what is not?[/quote]

In this case it’s fighting fire with fire.

While I agree polotics should be stricken as much as possible, that flag is also a part of American history, and is not a new movement by far.

While our colleges blast kids from the left all day long, this is a breath of newer air, with historical meanings.

So shouldn’t the display of that flag be qualified, and the fact of its historical significance explained to children? Simply displaying it, I would think, would be interpreted as an endorsement.

Furthermore, there is a long history of socialist and anarchist activism in the US as well. Would you also tolerate an anarcho-syndicalist or communist flag displayed in a K-5 classroom?

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So shouldn’t the display of that flag be qualified, and the fact of its historical significance explained to children? Simply displaying it, I would think, would be interpreted as an endorsement.

Furthermore, there is a long history of socialist and anarchist activism in the US as well. Would you also tolerate an anarcho-syndicalist or communist flag displayed in a K-5 classroom?[/quote]

MLK Jr should then be stricken from the classroom under your logic. Do we endorse him? I see it as the same thing. Indoctrination on values the US holds, which is SMALL LIMITED GOV is our History. It is not indoctrinating kids to love or follow an individual like Barak Hussain Obama…MMM, MMM, MMMM!

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Just a bit.

I went to drop off my youngest at the K-6 School she goes to for a Girl Scout meeting tonight. In a 5th grade class window the above flag was covering a large window!

I’m sure it will be taken down soon, as soon as someone complains, but the fact it was there for a whole day is a great thing. I’m sending the teacher a Thank You note.[/quote]

This is great news, perhaps not all teachers are the liberals the politicans make them out to be.[/quote]

I think it is great also , but I wonder how you would feel if you disagreed the political statement, I am sure not all Ron Paul fans are like you:)

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Just a bit.

I went to drop off my youngest at the K-6 School she goes to for a Girl Scout meeting tonight. In a 5th grade class window the above flag was covering a large window!

I’m sure it will be taken down soon, as soon as someone complains, but the fact it was there for a whole day is a great thing. I’m sending the teacher a Thank You note.[/quote]

This is great news, perhaps not all teachers are the liberals the politicans make them out to be.[/quote]

I think it is great also , but I wonder how you would feel if you disagreed the political statement, I am sure not all Ron Paul fans are like you:)[/quote]

5th graders at the school are learning about US History. When it’s Black History Month, they have posters of MLK Jr, Carver, Etc. I think she is getting away with it because they are teaching US History.

I still can’t believe it, but I am glad that Smaller Gov and less intrusive government is being taught as a value. This school is not trying to ignore the fact that our founding documents and fathers were of the same mind.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Just a bit.

I went to drop off my youngest at the K-6 School she goes to for a Girl Scout meeting tonight. In a 5th grade class window the above flag was covering a large window!

I’m sure it will be taken down soon, as soon as someone complains, but the fact it was there for a whole day is a great thing. I’m sending the teacher a Thank You note.[/quote]

This is great news, perhaps not all teachers are the liberals the politicans make them out to be.[/quote]

EDIT DUPLICATE:
It’s scary how something that represented our founding values in this country could ever be considered “controversial”.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
It’s scary how something that represented our founding values in this country could ever be considered “controversial”.
[/quote]

Symbols are just symbols, they are given meaning by us. When most of us see a swastika we think Nazi Germany, even though they didn’t create the symbol, they co-opted it, and now it has a different meaning to most of us than it would have otherwise.

The “Don’t Tread On Me Flag” has historical significance, but if a current political movement co-opts it, and gives it new meaning (I’m sure they’d argue the same meaning in a modern context), the flag ceases to be an historical artifact, and becomes a piece of political paraphernalia.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

The “Don’t Tread On Me Flag” has historical significance, but if a current political movement co-opts it, and gives it new meaning (I’m sure they’d argue the same meaning in a modern context), the flag ceases to be an historical artifact, and becomes a piece of political paraphernalia.[/quote]

So if a political body stand for the same ideals as our founding fathers, and uses it as a tool and message for the same reasons they were used long ago, it’s paraphanalia? I call it classic history of a people who belive in the US Constitution and DofI. Granted, Ben Franklin did not like it either and published his own version.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

The “Don’t Tread On Me Flag” has historical significance, but if a current political movement co-opts it, and gives it new meaning (I’m sure they’d argue the same meaning in a modern context), the flag ceases to be an historical artifact, and becomes a piece of political paraphernalia.[/quote]

So if a political body stand for the same ideals as our founding fathers, and uses it as a tool and message for the same reasons they were used long ago, it’s paraphanalia? I call it classic history of a people who belive in the US Constitution and DofI. Granted, Ben Franklin did not like it either and published his own version.
[/quote]

Yes, because history is history. When you start actively using something as your symbol, you co-opt it and change its meaning. We are not occupied by a foreign empire, we are not colonists trying to get representation in Parliament, or angry about having to pay for a war against France on our western boarder. You might see parallels between now and then, but there’s a lack of isomorphism. If you (your movement) wants to adopt old symbols, you will give them new meaning. That’s a fact.

If you want that symbol to remain associated with our struggle against Imperial Britain, then leave it alone. If you want your kids and grand kids to associate it with a highly political movement from the early part of the 21st century, co-opt it. You don’t get both though.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

The “Don’t Tread On Me Flag” has historical significance, but if a current political movement co-opts it, and gives it new meaning (I’m sure they’d argue the same meaning in a modern context), the flag ceases to be an historical artifact, and becomes a piece of political paraphernalia.[/quote]

So if a political body stand for the same ideals as our founding fathers, and uses it as a tool and message for the same reasons they were used long ago, it’s paraphanalia? I call it classic history of a people who belive in the US Constitution and DofI. Granted, Ben Franklin did not like it either and published his own version.
[/quote]

Yes, because history is history. When you start actively using something as your symbol, you co-opt it and change its meaning. We are not occupied by a foreign empire, we are not colonists trying to get representation in Parliament, or angry about having to pay for a war against France on our western boarder. You might see parallels between now and then, but there’s a lack of isomorphism. If you (your movement) wants to adopt old symbols, you will give them new meaning. That’s a fact.

If you want that symbol to remain associated with our struggle against Imperial Britain, then leave it alone. If you want your kids and grand kids to associate it with a highly political movement from the early part of the 21st century, co-opt it. You don’t get both though.[/quote]

Good argument, however it still stands as a symbol against oppressive government, be it Britain or Kenya or the US government. Just because the “devil” is of a different name does not negate the validity and true meaning of the message. The circumstances are the still the same.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Just a bit.

I went to drop off my youngest at the K-6 School she goes to for a Girl Scout meeting tonight. In a 5th grade class window the above flag was covering a large window!

I’m sure it will be taken down soon, as soon as someone complains, but the fact it was there for a whole day is a great thing. I’m sending the teacher a Thank You note.[/quote]

This is great news, perhaps not all teachers are the liberals the politicans make them out to be.[/quote]

EDIT DUPLICATE:
It’s scary how something that represented our founding values in this country could ever be considered “controversial”.
[/quote]

we agree

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So shouldn’t the display of that flag be qualified, and the fact of its historical significance explained to children? Simply displaying it, I would think, would be interpreted as an endorsement.

Furthermore, there is a long history of socialist and anarchist activism in the US as well. Would you also tolerate an anarcho-syndicalist or communist flag displayed in a K-5 classroom?[/quote]

MLK Jr should then be stricken from the classroom under your logic. Do we endorse him? I see it as the same thing. Indoctrination on values the US holds, which is SMALL LIMITED GOV is our History. It is not indoctrinating kids to love or follow an individual like Barak Hussain Obama…MMM, MMM, MMMM![/quote]

But it was only our history for SOME PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME. The “official” values have been limited government, etc. So in effect, you’re arguing for the elite values. But now that the “elite” values (our administration) are not the same as yours, you’re arguing for something else. It sounds like you just want us to teach what you like.

Furthermore, MLK Jr. was a socialist, yet we do not generally teach this in schools. Is this indoctrination, or at least a bit dishonest?

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So shouldn’t the display of that flag be qualified, and the fact of its historical significance explained to children? Simply displaying it, I would think, would be interpreted as an endorsement.

Furthermore, there is a long history of socialist and anarchist activism in the US as well. Would you also tolerate an anarcho-syndicalist or communist flag displayed in a K-5 classroom?[/quote]

MLK Jr should then be stricken from the classroom under your logic. Do we endorse him? I see it as the same thing. Indoctrination on values the US holds, which is SMALL LIMITED GOV is our History. It is not indoctrinating kids to love or follow an individual like Barak Hussain Obama…MMM, MMM, MMMM![/quote]

But it was only our history for SOME PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME. The “official” values have been limited government, etc. So in effect, you’re arguing for the elite values. But now that the “elite” values (our administration) are not the same as yours, you’re arguing for something else. It sounds like you just want us to teach what you like.

Furthermore, MLK Jr. was a socialist, yet we do not generally teach this in schools. Is this indoctrination, or at least a bit dishonest?
[/quote]

What? I’m trying to understand what point you are actually trying to make. Does history need to change and the meaning behind it because the demographic is different today in the USA than it was back then? This has nothing to do with “elite” values.

Stop trying to pull the soy out of your ass.

Well, it’s telling that you can’t even have a simple discussion without getting frustrated and resorting to childish insults (a quite common failing of the right, but I digress…)

The point is, these “American values,” as you are trying to pawn them off, are not and have never been universally held, yet you pluck them out of a sea of competing values and say, “These should be taught,” with nothing in the way of justification.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
The point is, these “American values,” as you are trying to pawn them off, are not and have never been universally held, yet you pluck them out of a sea of competing values and say, “These should be taught,” with nothing in the way of justification.[/quote]

WRONG. They are AMERICAN values, and you are right, they are not UNIVERSALLY held since the progressive movement does not like the constitution so I’ll agree that TODAY they are not univerally held here because of dirtbag liberals who want government to be the answer to all values and morality. A statement like your above tells me you do not believe in the US Constitution, therefore you will flog anything that represents it’s values.

My “justification” is the US Constitution as a teaching of US HISTORY. I understand you would like to re-write the facts, but you can’t do that here.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
The point is, these “American values,” as you are trying to pawn them off, are not and have never been universally held, yet you pluck them out of a sea of competing values and say, “These should be taught,” with nothing in the way of justification.[/quote]

WRONG. They are AMERICAN values, and you are right, they are not UNIVERSALLY held since the progressive movement does not like the constitution so I’ll agree that TODAY they are not univerally held here because of dirtbag liberals who want government to be the answer to all values and morality. A statement like your above tells me you do not believe in the US Constitution, therefore you will flog anything that represents it’s values.

My “justification” is the US Constitution as a teaching of US HISTORY. I understand you would like to re-write the facts, but you can’t do that here.

[/quote]

Can you enumerate these previously universal values American’s purportedly had? (FYI, the guys who wrote the Constitution Are Classic Liberals, they in fact, define the dictionary definition of Classic Liberalism).

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
The point is, these “American values,” as you are trying to pawn them off, are not and have never been universally held, yet you pluck them out of a sea of competing values and say, “These should be taught,” with nothing in the way of justification.[/quote]

WRONG. They are AMERICAN values, and you are right, they are not UNIVERSALLY held since the progressive movement does not like the constitution so I’ll agree that TODAY they are not univerally held here because of dirtbag liberals who want government to be the answer to all values and morality. A statement like your above tells me you do not believe in the US Constitution, therefore you will flog anything that represents it’s values.

My “justification” is the US Constitution as a teaching of US HISTORY. I understand you would like to re-write the facts, but you can’t do that here.
[/quote]

Rock, American values are broader than you are acknowledging, you can not have ninety percent of your citizens coming from Socialist counties and not have some socialist values :slight_smile: