T Nation

New Cycle Idea


220 on the dot
12ish% BF, but I don't give a crap
Cycle goals: Strength for PL, maybe some body recomp so I can stay in the 220's
Cycle history: several throughout my life

Strategy: Use 2x2 concept (as per Bill Roberts)to stretch out total time "ON" so that there is pharmaceutical support throughout train-up to PL comp, timed with periods of peak training stress. In addition, maximize effects while minimizing total compounds used.

Tactics: Use high androgen compounds with short esters to maximize strength gain and recovery between mini-cycles. Use SERM during "off" periods. Maximize Androgen levels leading into competition. Last injection during "on" weeks will be on day 12, to allow suppressing agents to leave system by "off" time. Clean up diet, not decreasing calories, but increasing meal frequency and quality of food sources IOT facilitate body recomp.

Week 1-2 50/day each of Tren A/Test P/Mast P
week 3-4 20/day Nolva
Week 5-6 50/day each of Tren A/Test P/Mast P
Week 7-8 20/day Nolva
Week 9-10 50/day each of Tren A/Test P/Mast P
Week 11-12 20/day Nolva
Week 13-14 50/day each of Tren A/Test P/Mast P
Week 15-16 20/day Nolva
Week 17-18 50/day each of Tren A/Test P/Mast P, 20mg/day Halo (Grr!)
Week 19 50/day Clomid 20/day Nolva
Week 20 20/day Nolva
2 months off

I've got some Prov. laying around... redundant with the Mast?
AI during on time, or are we "outrunning" any real issues here?
HCG during on time to increase recovery?
SERM use between mini-cycles seemed debatable, but since I've got a bunch strung together, I figured maximizing recovery wouldn't be a bad thing.

Let me know!


Nice stuff. i wont bore you with cycle advice, you are sound there IMO.

Have you considered adding HCG to the on weeks? It will help recovery in the two weeks off.. and of course keep teste size plump!

I would say proviron is likely redundant with the mast.. HOWEVER - IIRC the level of free androgen in the body is always around 2% of total.. so if one was to add proviron, then it would 'compete' with any other androgens in the body for binding enzymes (or the other way around) - possibly freeing up some test - as test has less affinity for aromatase and SHBG than proviron and mast.. and i think Tren too, so it could be worthwhile.
If it is laying around it couldnt hurt :wink:

I would most definitely use an AI with the use of Testosterone.. a low dose should suffice however - what with Masterons affinity for aromatase AND only 350mg/wk Test Prop.

Ahh.. just seen the HCG question! Yes..

And SERM during off periods is most definitely a must IMO. It will really help.

I'd love to hear some results of those 2 week blasts - and how recovery 'feels' during each cruise, along with any bloods you may have done.

Good luck mate! I enjoyed this post - no explaining shit! :wink:

ps. It is very similar to a cycle i am on (875TP, 350TA, 420MP, 280DB) and the strength is greeeat!



Week 11-12 20/day Nolva
Week 11-12 50/day each of Tren A/Test P/Mast P

Is that a typo? Doing SERM and AAS in same time frame?


Yep. Typo. Thanks. I fixed it.

Also I'd appreciate thoughts on this:

I've never gone over 600mg/wk of total drug intake. The cycle as shown goes to more than a gram/week.

What if I cut it to 33mg/day each tren/mast/prop

still comes out to 700/week in androgens....


With tren being as strong as it is (I don't know your experience with tren), that may do you just fine on a more conventional cycle. However, with these short blast cycles a higher dose may be warranted.

The beauty with this is you could try the lower dose on the first blast, if not happy with the gains just go up on the following.

Would you mind logging this cycle on here? These have always interested me but I have never seen any good logs.


If you want to stick with 2 weeks "strictly" on, then I think last injection for TP and DP should be on day 11, and last day for TA is on day day 12. As propionate ester takes a couple of days to clear your system.
2 weeks on = 2 weeks suppression.

Use HCG during those two weeks, tue, fri, tue, fri, 0.25mg adex EOD during on periods

good luck on your cycle


Is aromasin an acceptable AI, or does it lower estrogen to aggressively? According to the AI/SERM sticky, aromasin is better used when running nolva as opposed to adex which can inhibit nolva due to a drug class interaction that escapes me at the moment.

This is confusing? I was under the impression that an AI was not required for a 2 on 2 off series. With a SERM being used only at the end. Now both are being reccomended along with HCG.

Sorry; I do not intend to seem lost or overly needy. I simply want to advance my understanding of how to properly run these 2 weekers. I have one basically ready that is similar to the TS's, just not as lengthy or intricate.


I personally run an Anti Aromatase with any Aromatising drug.. it isnt the length of time i run a drug for, it is if it converts to Estrogens.


As Bencejones said trial and error won't cost you much. You may be satisfied with the lower dose. If not it is a simple matter to evert to original planned dosage.


OK... since it seems that people are ok with the overall structure.... I'm thinking this might be a good time for me to experiment with different compounds/combinations, as there's only a couple of weeks on and as long as they are quick acting drugs, any sides should clear pretty fast.

Some compounds I want to play with in here, probably replacing some of the tren/mast/prop cycles:

Drol 100/day on its own?

Drol 50/day Halo 20/day both well known for strength increases. One super low affinity for AR, one super high affinity for AR, I would think my strength would be through the roof, but will my liver explode?

DBol 40mg/day w/ or without halo

TBol 40mg/day w/or without halo

I figure I can use this "macrocycle" as an opportunity to experiment with new compounds in "mini-cycles"

I'd love to play with var, but theres so much fake stuff out there, and whats reliable is uber-expensive
Same with oral primo

Winny's effect on joints would be the absolute worst possible thing for me.

I'm open to ideas... I'm starting to think of this as a "candy store sampler" cycle, and I can figure out what I like best. All I've really done before is test and dbol.


OTS1 couple questions for you.
When is your competition and for what fed to do you compete? I assume maybe you wont be tested so something like APA?

I PL myself and Im not a fan of the 2 on 2 off program leading up to a PL competition. Depending what kinda circa max work you do in the last couple months it would be best to stay on the entire last 2 months leading up to contest rather than trying to blast and recovery and then re blast.

Drol or dbol would both greatly enhance the effects of tren and test however if you're trying to stay at 220 you might end up needing to cut weight.

Like yourself I avoid winny like the plague due to the brittleness it leaves my joints feeling.

Var is probably not a great choice for you since a] you have pricing concerns [who doesnt] and b] in the face of other compounds its just not as effective as a PL compound as test tren or either of the 2 mighty orals.

Hit me back with some answers and we can brainstorm.


It would be much better to frontload. In a 2 week cycle, losing a few days to levels having to build up is a significant inefficiency.

I would take double the trenbolone acetate, and triple of the propionates on day 1.

The study -- so far as I know there has only ever been one -- that determined effect of androgen use on LHRH sensitivity as a function of numbers of days of use -- showed sensitivity dropping from heightened after 14 days, to quite rapidly in the toilet after that.

As a guess most likely the reason is that men and women do not have different organs for LH production, but the same. The same hypothalamus and pituitary that must generate a cyclical pattern in women are in men as well.

Cyclical operation -- I don't actually understand why but it is one of those things that has been mathematically proven -- requires periods of positive feedback. In other words, instead of being suppressed by the thing produced, actually being sensitized by it.

This may be the explanation for why men respond to androgen in this way.

The point being, you really don't want to go past 14 days of androgenic suppression. 16 or 17 might seem very similar but there has been shown to be a pretty sharp threahold here. No, your life won't be ruined, recovery will still be good, but there is reason to think it is even better at 14 days. At any rate it's certainly excellent done that way, so why not.

So for example this would make day 12 the last day for the trenbolone acetate, and day 11 for the others.

Works out to 13 days worth of each product injected, albeit timed differently.

If desired the last couple of days can be beefed up with orals if you have them. However, you really won't notice at the time if you don't. (It's possible that results in the following week might be very slightly better for having taken the orals, though.)


BR: Thats why I'm thinking orals now... much easier to control total time "on" no worrying about how many half-lives is still suppressive. Orals out of the system FAST.

SAPS: sending PM


I decided there's no real need to PM this. I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

I am not fed loyal, and lift in whatever meet fits in with my training plan and goals. I will be lifting raw in a super-equipped untested fed. LOL. Maybe that's weird, but my goals are my own.

I don't do a traditional "circa max" phase, but I will be doing something of a peaking program. Generally, I do a highly modified Westside in three week waves, alternating ME, DE and RE (generally a 3x3, but a 5x5 on rare occasion). I generally set things up where my first week is a little below my old PR's, my second week is matching my old PR's, third week is breaking PR's, and week 4 is deload/conditioning.

I thought this kind of cycling could really enhance the train-up to the meet by adding some training/recovery support during weeks 2 and 3, since its probably not needed during the whole month.

I was thinking that I would do cycles of drol/halo/dbol/tbol/whatever during the train-up and then run test/tren/halo in the last mini-cycle leading up to the comp. the first week of that mini-cycle would be me hitting PR's in everything (DL at 80%), the week leading up to the meet would be some super-light (50-60%) doubles just to keep my groove, and then I'd be off everything the day after the meet, and start PCT.

What do you think about drol/halo?
Drol/Dbol (eh...)? Drol or Dbol w. TNE/ suspension? Tbol? Halo? Oh there's so many :slightly_smiling:

I'm on the borderline of the 220's now. I'm not bringing home any national championships quite yet, so I've always just decided to lift wherever I am, since that's where I'm strongest, and that's all I care about at this moment. I'd rather concentrate on training than manipulating my weight.

If I'm at 2 weeks out and I'm 228, maybe I'll cut, but if its going to affect my strength, it aint worth it to me. I'm not Matt Kroc (NUTTY weight cuts).

I've never tried winny, but it just seems to make no sense for me. No reason. Maybe I would if I took a summer off of PL and wanted to look like I didn't eat candy when I showed up at the beach. Interesting though that I've gotten compliments from both men and women that I look like I'm "actually strong" and not just some poof with pretty abs and a nice tan. I hate the beach anyway...

I agree on var.

I hope this all makes sense. I tried to address your post question by question.


Here's why I dont like the mini waves in the last 8 weeks before a meet. In your plan you'd be off half the time and that time should be on. Even during a de load week if your pumping in the goodies like test and tren it only enhances recovery, protein synthesis etc etc.

Given the choice between 2 weeks of nolva and 2 weeks of some test and tren I know what I'd do.
I have no halo experience so anything I say would be bro-knowledge which I dont dispense [enough doing that already].

If you're pot committed on the 2 on 2 off program consider dosage adjustments.

A lot of this is cumulative anyway. Everyones total gains and progress is better after 2 weeks than 1 or 4 weeks than 2 or 8 weeks than 4.

Finally re the drol or dbol or anything that would cause you a lot of weight gain if as you say you dont care then go for it you'll be stronger. Also if you're lifting raw you dont have to worry about PL gear fitting so why not


So you think maybe something VERY ROUGHLY like:

Weeks 1-2 ON Orals
Weeks 3-4 OFF nolva
Weeks 5-6 ON Orals
Weeks 7-8 OFF nolvo
Weeks 9-12 Orals
Weeks 9-16 Long Acting Test
Weeks 13-16 Tren A or Weeks 9-16 Tren E
2 months off

might be more in line with your thinking?

TBH, I'm pretty stoked about the 2 on 2 off idea, because in my own experience, the strength gains keep coming for a while even when off.

Also: I'm very methodical with my training. I know what numbers I have to hit every month and every week in order to hit the numbers I want at the meet. The two on two off method allows me to apply the maximum amount of stimulus at precisely the time it is needed. No more, no less.

Also: you're right. I'd rather have test over nolva, but I'd also rather have support over 5 months of training than just the immediate run-up to the meet.

There's also this: I can run the 2 on 2 off scheme for a couple months and then decide to switch to a regular cycle if I'm not liking what I'm getting from the 2 on 2 off... I mean... the flexibility is kind of the beauty of the whole thing...

So as of right now, I'm thinking of running 2 compounds not conventionally run together (Drol Halo) in a manner that is also not conventional, and competing in an unconventional manner at my meet.

If I do decide to run this, I may call it the "Wackjob cycle"


Experimentation is the route to what works best for you. Keep us posted on your observations.


OK... so after some thought, I decided anadrol might not be what I want here. For at least my first couple minicycles, its going to be test suspension and halo with an AI. 100/day test susp. 20/day halo. I know how I react to test, so lets see how I react to halo.

My thinking was that I was happy with the risk/reward with test only cycles, so why would I jump to screw that up immediately?

I was thinking that a possible dosing scheme might be 50/day except for training days, which get 50 + 50 pre-workout.



Bill, the basis behind this scheme was that there was only 14 days of suppression. I would think I could run the suspension for all 14 days, but perhaps I should only run 13 days to be safe?