Pay and productivity gap.
Maybe in theory, but not in any “free-market” economy that exists today.
The free-market ALWAYS leads to monopolistic or cartel-like tendencies.
Well it’s from those who have a vested interest in suppressing the truth. Be it from government OR corporations. Most likely a combination of the two.
The Clintons are nothing more than opportunistic criminals.
Doesn’t address the question.
What about the Scandinavian countries?
Yes, they often do. Whenever money is involved nothing is improbable.
What about the power of corporations and the ultra-wealthy?
No, people and organizations spreading this kind of propaganda normally:
1.Do not have facts on their side
Yes, I agree, which is why they bribe news organizations and government officials with money.
As well as its own funds, CCF also administers the Co-operative Loan Fund, provided by the Co-operative Group and three regional societies. And according to Taylor, defaults on CCF’s loans are very low. “Last year, it was 0%. The average over the last 15 years has been less than 3%,” he says. These are bad debt ratios that commercial banks would be delighted to obtain.
Is this just repeating a slogan?
How could welfare increase when corporations and the ultra-wealthy are trying their best to change tax laws to financially favor them. Oh I know allocate the taxes differently. Instead of all that money spent on the military-industrial complex, devote more tax dollars to welfare.
Is this really necessary?
Extremely hard to do when the industry has been captured by corporations. Essentially the corporations have bribed the politicians to squash competition in order to keep the profit spigot on no matter what. Human lives don’t even make a difference. The pharma industry is one I can think of and it is close to me as it has had a negative consequence for me.
Why do you always dodge questions?
Perhaps we’ve overshoot “upward mobility” equilibrium and are adjusting down to it? Perhaps shifts in how our economy operate have resulted in lower average incomes? Perhaps gains in productivity are not the result of hard/smart work by employees, but in technological improvements?
There are a bunch of reasons why is could be happening that have nothing at all to do with some nefarious plot by the 1%.
No. Businesses fail for a whole host of reasons.
Not necessarily. The point is that the comparison you keep making is absurd on its face. The vast majority of businesses are created as either sole-ownership or some form of partnership (LLC). If that were to change to co-ops then a lot more co-ops would fail. That’s just common sense. Perhaps co-ops would outperform other org structured on a larger scale, but we have no data what-so-ever to support that claim.
What in gods name are you replying to with this?
No, what you wrote, “Ask the population about their financial well-being and I’d bet they would tell you about the horrors which your post doesn’t elaborate on” is your conjecture on the matter.
Middle-Income Americans have load of financial stress, cool story. How much of it is self-inflicted?
You didn’t write the truth nor did it “hurt”. I’ve never once stated the US is “ALL good” nor do I believe that. Can you not help but write non-sense?
This will make you “better” how?
Dude, I get it, I’ve been reading your talking points for years now. You don’t have to re-type/paste them into every post. I got it.
Sure, if you actually paid taxes. I didn’t say yours wasn’t.
Close enough, but you’re just strengthening my point…
I support co-ops with my money…
But you can go elsewhere for it. It’s not like they’re stopping you from going to Panama. You could argue they’ve made it more difficult for you, but they aren’t “keeping you from getting better”.
Nice talking point, got it.
The financial system has destroyer your credit, how?
It’s not your fault and it sucks. I completely agree.
Can you explain to me why you think you’re entitled to other people’s money that you know you can’t pay back?
How, there’s no cure for MS?
As much as I don’t like you, I’d love nothing more for you to get better and earn a living.
It’s not the truth. It’s a skewed version of your truth. As has been pointed out, if you had MS in another country you’d be lying in a gutter begging right now. Instead you have a number of benefits, food to eat, a roof, etc… That terrible system makes that happend for you.
BK because of medical debt? I’m not convinced it happens in this country; except, in the rarest of circumstances.
What the fuck are you talking about?
YOU HAVE MONEY TO PAY YOUR RENT AND FEED YOURSELF THAT SOMEONE ELSE YOU DON’T KNOW PROVIDES YOU.
No, it’s shitty, but it has zero to do with “the system” here.
I have no idea. I saw it while I was reading about stem cell treatment w/ embilical cord stem cells and thought you’d be interested.
Did you actually read these?
*I know you didn’t read them now. Read the Atlantic and let me know how technology has played a role in increased productivity.
No, it doesn’t. Cartel’s are illegal and we have laws against monopolization. Again, capitalism leads to these things in theory, but not in practice. Certainly not in the US.
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How about not holding people accountable for being disabled? How about not allowing pharma to hold back innovations, so they could make more money from their synthetic chemicals? All made possible by Capitalism. Should people in my position just accept this injustice?
Yes, I completely agree with this.
I don’t know about this, but I don’t support them either.
The original question was. “How can the poor be starving if a large percentage of them are obese” because you said the poor are starving in the US. You then asked about diabetes. I said it shows “they are eating too much”. So are they starving or not?
They aren’t socialist, nor do they call themselves socialist. Bernie and his cronies are the only ones calling them that. Again, if you are for more welfare, particularly in your case and similar ones, then it’s a whole other issue that should be brought up separately. Have we not discussed this?
Only if the systemic corruption in the government is severe enough. That can only happen with Big Government. Seriously, you think I’m bullshitting you? Go read up on China and Malaysia and see how corrupt the entire system is all the way down to the lowest ranks. I’ve been there. I’ve bribed government employees. You’re not getting fake news from me. You will be getting watered down versions from the news.
If the government has enough power to nationalize a private company at will and throw you in jail without trial for being a threat to the State, the ones who are ultra-wealthy are only ultra-wealthy because the government LETS THEM be ultra-wealthy. The others either fled the country or were persecuted. This is picking winners and losers. Real monopolies and oligopolies emerge like this.
Propaganda is about indoctrination and appeals to emotions.
- Indoctrination. It starts with children in schools and young adults who lack life experience. The Red Guards were all University students.
Hongkongers knew what was really going on. They wouldn’t even tolerate things like this.
- Appeals to the emotions of the emotionally vulnerable and people who feel that they have been wronged by society. Music, movies, slogans, talking points, fiery oratories, denouncement of opponents as villains/ counter-revolutionaries/ puppets and lap dogs of the bourgeois.
Look, we went over this back and forth for a bloody month previously. Let’s just leave it as “dt79 supports co-ops.”, ok?
That’s all you’ve been doing prior to this. All I’m going to say is you would need a lot more data for the argument to be compelling.
Get the government OUT. Limit their powers. That’s how you solve it.
I don’t know enough about your foreign policy to comment.
Get the government OUT. Don’t allow this to happen. Don’t put your faith in anyone who claims he’s going to revolutionize the system.
First, Capitalism is the reason you are receiving money and not begging on the streets. I do not understand why you simply fail to understand this fact. The government isn’t the one making the money that’s being handed to you. Where do you think it’s coming from? It just fell out of the sky?
Second, get the government out of the market.
Third, I was giving you a suggestion on how you can bring more attention to your issues since you said your other methods were futile. What is your problem with that? Simply complaining here and to a couple of forums won’t change much unless you have enough of an audience.
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You survive off of money you get via wealth re-distribution.
We (society) spend billions of dollars researching disease to treat/cure them. JHU, a not for profit received over $2B for research in 2016. In total 902 universities (not big pharm) spent $75 BILLION dollars on R&D that year. That’s all federal funding or private donations.
JHU has an entire center dedicated to the eradication of MS:
The society you hate so much puts a lot of time and money into helping you.
I do and his comment is silly at best.
Mandatory Spending
The vast majority (87% / $2.2T) is spent on social programs
Military spending is about 53% of the much small pot of discretionary spending
60.68% of the total budget is on Medicare & Health (27.42%) and social security, unemployment & Labor (33.26%). Military spending is 15.88%.
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So you think it’s an overabundance of calories from the food they are eating rather than the type of food?
But they do offer more social programs, right? The definitions are not as important.
You’ve bribed government employees? So your bribery wasn’t the catalyst of corruption? Corporations/ultra-wealthy people are the beginnings of corruption but the majority of the blame usually gets assigned to the government while the private sector gets off scot-free.
The ultra-wealthy exist because they have bribed the government to drive out competition. It is the ultra-wealthy who typically start the process of corruption.
So welfare would increase if the government was out?
Propaganda is about indoctrination and appeals to emotions.
1.Indoctrination. It starts with children in schools and young adults who lack life experience
The propaganda you speak of is designed to keep up the power and profits of the ruling class.
You don’t need to know about my foreign policy to see the data.
Why not punish the people responsible for the bribing?
No. The government is. If it was up to the Capitalist I would get nothing. They are the reason why I can’t choose the treatment I want and have blocked my access to capital to circumvent the awful “healthcare” system we have in this country.
Another immature way to look at how things have been developed. A rigid ideology that doesn’t let you look outside your bubble.
Things are beginning to change. Medicare-For-All will become a reality. Mexico just elected a progressive President, Theresa May lost plenty of seats to The Labour Party thanks to Jeremy Corbyn and Trump will most likely not be re-elected.
No thanks to the Csapitalist system.
Really? Then don’t you find it odd that there are no cures coming. Only patent-based medications designed for profit primarily
And where is the help? Synthetic chemicals designed for profit. Why aren’t stem cell treatments for chronic/degenerative diseases not even a choice here? They have been far more successful with a much better safety profile. In addition, they have been done for over 10 years in other countries. Why?
The United States spends more on national defense than China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France, United Kingdom, and Japan combined.
Yeah I’m so silly.
So what? It’s 15% of our budget while social programs are 61%. Yet, you think we need to shift spending from the military to social programs… That’s silliness.
Utter non-sense completely detached from reality.
No, because I live in reality where doctors aren’t magicians.
$75 BILLION DOLLARS SPENT ON R&D AT NOT FOR PROFIT Universities like JHU.
Your rent is paid for by someone else. Your food is paid for by someone else. You’re probably on several other government programs that support you. We (society) put $75B towards non-profit R&D into diseases like yours.
They are as I pointed out earlier. What isn’t available here is due to the FDA not allowing it.
Far more successful at what? How does the treatment make you “better”?
Explained like 500x now.
The cause of obesity is an overabundance of calories. This is not a point anyone can dispute. If you want to argue that the development of diabetes is a direct result of the food, you would have to prove causation without obesity being present.
Oh yes, the definition is of the UPMOST IMPORTANCE.
- 120 million people died because of socialism.
- You would be getting less welfare than what you are getting in the US in a real socialist country. And your standard of living would also be much lower.
No. You simply do not understand how corruption works.
Police will harass street food vendors if they fail to pay them “protection money”. This was rampant everywhere in Asia.
Hospital staff will give you shitty treatment if you do not give them a bribe.
Officials will deny or purposefully delay applications for business matters until you finally give them a bribe after waiting for 3 months. Then you get it the next day.
You want to enter the military in China? You need to bribe the officials. This is real.
And you think it’s so easy to bribe someone when you need something done at a higher level? There are layers and layers of people you have to go through. People you have to wine and dine and network with in order to see the guy who you want to deal with.
These are just a few examples. I can write a whole fucking book about this. Corruption is so embedded in everyday life and culture that it’s NORMALIZED. At least half the population in China has bribed an official once in his/her life.
Again, this is not about assigning blame so don’t spin it like this. This is PREVENTING shit from happening in the first place.
I am the President of China. You are an evil billionaire CEO of a corporation.
I can nationalize your entire corporation if I want to. I can jail you and your entire family and take every single possession you own. I can even give you the death penalty if I claim you tried to corrupt me.
Who calls the shots?
What are you going to do about it?
I chose all my cabinet ministers. I elected the judges. I control the press. I let corruption happen all the way down the ranks so I can fucking have leverage or purge anyone when I need to.
You don’t want to play ball?
I can even start a fucking bidding war among all you evil corporate fuckers and go with the ones who will give me the most loot. Then I will get rid of the rest so you make more money and I get more loot.
What are you going to do?
The only thing you can do is get the military to stage a coup with the promise that one of the Generals will get to take my throne.
Nah. It’s not going to happen again. Not after Yuan Shikai. That motherfucker…
See? Leverage:
The People love me because I stamp out corruption by purging the officials whom I let get away all the years I was in the government. I keep the ones loyal to me. I tell them to keep it low on the corruption for a while. The cycle will still go on.
I install the new general. He is loyal to me. You are fucked.
NOTE: All simplified and exaggerated to depict what can potentially happen based on similar events which HAVE happened in history
If you get more corruption and government fucking up the economy, you may not even get welfare.
I want to prevent the TRANSACTION from happening in the first place.
What is the point of punishment after the act if it can’t be stopped? The DEATH PENALTY in China does not even act as a deterrent.
Bullshit. The government wouldn’t be able to AFFORD to give you anything if not for wealth being created by capitalism. This is why I am telling you that the economy has to be left alone. Social policies are a different thing.
I have no ideology. I look at how things develop and form my perspectives through education and experience.
So you don’t want to try and solve your own problems. You prefer to rely on others to solve them for you.
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This whole thing was such a damned good post. Well said.
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Thanks. Zep simply doesn’t understand what the rest of the world is like.
This was a modern day “purge” we just witnessed in the 2nd largest economy in the world lol. Officials were making millions from bribes alone. Corruption hasn’t stopped. They’d just been laying low until Xi Jinping managed to abolish term limits on the presidency.
Basic annual salary for the President is $22,000 USD. This is the 2nd largest economy in the world.
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Not even a little bit. It genuinely scares me that loss of historical literacy is so rampant. In my opinion all that stands between totalitarianiam and Republican democracy is the thin red line of civil political discourse and a watchful alert citizenry. Social programs are entirely separate from socialism as you have said many times by now.
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It seems that it’s willful ignorance in a proportion that may not be a majority, but it’s large enough that it’s very, very troublesome.
Probably not around these parts, but it seems the general population doesn’t understand this distinction in the same kind of proportion I mentioned above. There’s also a lack of understanding of the kind of economy that is currently in place in the US/West.
People like to rail against “capitalism” but don’t understand just what they’re railing against, some of the causes of that against which they rail, and how what they think is a cure will pretty much just exacerbate the symptoms they’re observing.
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And which is the most detrimental?
Do 1,500 of calories of pancakes and syrup have the same effect as 1,500 calories of broccoli?
No spending more than the next 7 countries on the military is silly. Is it necessary?