New Business Failures

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

What would be the cost of our current system over a 10 year period?

According to the link, which is in line with what I’ve read, we spend $3.2T annually for public and private healthcare. That’s $32T over 10 years. In other words, healthcare expenditures would literally double.

@Zeppelin795

Does Medicare, Medicaid prices rise higher and faster than the current system?

Medicare and Medicaid are a part of the current system…

Their costs are already higher. Like astronomically higher than other plans within our system. I don’t know if their prices rise faster and it’s irrelevant because these costs are already astronomical compared to other plans within our system, the programs only support a very small percentage of Americans, and are subsidized by debt. Both programs will also be insolvent very soon and pretty much everyone agrees with this fact.

@Zeppelin795

Wow, how shocking! Do you think she has a financial stake here?

The analysis was done by the Urban Institute.

@Zeppelin795

Exactly.

You’ve misunderstood.

You said, “you ought not be held accountable for having a disease.”

I said, “Neither should anyone else”

Meaning, I shouldn’t be held accountable for your disease either, which is exactly what you want. You want me and other taxpayers to pay for your care. How exactly is that fair? Do you pay for my kid’s daycare bill? Do you pay my healthcare premiums, my prescription costs, so on and so forth? No, you don’t. So, why should I have to pay (ie be accountable) for your disease?

@Zeppelin795

No they have not.

Of course, they have. I’m not going to continue to debate this with you for the reasons I’ve already stated.

@Zeppelin795

Your main argument to be against stem cell therapy is clinical trials.

I’m not against stem cells therapy. This is a perfect example of why I am not going to debate this further with you.

@Zeppelin795

Does nothing to negate the point.

You claimed you understand because you’ve been through the system and I don’t understand because I’ve just read a theory or something like that. I pointed out I’ve both been a part of that system and lived it via a close family member.

“Point” negated.

@Zeppelin795

And your premise is based on zero influence of ad campaigns and food science.

Incorrect.

@Zeppelin795

Then, where is your blame to corporations?

Stating a fact, in this case that it is the FDA that has kept Stem Cell therapy out of the US, does not mean I place all of the blame on the FDA. Stating a fact, like US consumers freely chose to drink 45 gallons of soda a year, does not mean I don’t place some of the blame on both the FDA and “Big Soda” in this case. At the end of the day, it is the FDA and Consumers that deserve the bulk/most of the blame for these two examples as they are the ones that make the decisions in both cases. Yes, they are both influenced, by lobbying or advertisements, but it is just that, influence. Their decision is theirs to make and they’ve made them, clearly.

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

And corporations do their best to influence the public’s decisions, spending millions of dollars, even if it is bad for them.

Companies spend millions of dollars to combat competition not to influence consumers to eat fast food, generally. It’s to eat their product. They (we) already know consumers are going to eat fast food even though they, generally, understand it is bad for their health.

[anon50325502]

@pfury

@Zeppelin795

Whoever said there will be no increased taxes?

You. When you said it’d be cheaper overall. If it’s cheaper overall you don’t need to raise taxes. Thats super basic math.

He is going to say people will save money because they will no longer be paying what he calls private taxes (insurance premiums) even though their tax rates will go up. It’s just basic right pocket left pocket budgeting and the math still doesn’t work anyway.

[Aragorn]

@Zeppelin795

And corporations do their best to influence the public’s decisions, spending millions of dollars, even if it is bad for them. As long as their making another buck it’s all good. What a sad, pathetic ideology

I didn’t state an ideology. I stated fucking FACTS.

Nobody on this green and blue marble is guaranteed to be free of influences on them as they make their decisions in life. What we DO GUARANTEE here in America is the ability for you to make most of your decisions freely.

[Basement_Gainz]

@Aragorn

Nobody on this green and blue marble is guaranteed to be free of influences on them as they make their decisions in life. What we DO GUARANTEE here in America is the ability for you to make most of your decisions freely.

Stealing this unattributed quote: “An intelligent mind can entertain a thought without adopting it.”

You can see the Wendy’s add and not buy that sammich.

[Zeppelin795]

@anon50325502

According to the link, which is in line with what I’ve read, we spend $3.2T annually for public and private healthcare. That’s $32T over 10 years. In other words, healthcare expenditures would literally double

OH no! Admin costs for government healthcare is far lower. This can’t be. Better ask the Koch brothers and Fox News if it’s true?

Medicare vs. Non-Government (Private) Health Insurance - Obamacare - ProCon.org

@anon50325502

Medicare and Medicaid are a part of the current system…

That was not the question.

@anon50325502

Their costs are already higher. Like astronomically higher than other plans within our system.

Care to provide any proof or should I just believe you?

@anon50325502

Meaning, I shouldn’t be held accountable for your disease either, which is exactly what you want. You want me and other taxpayers to pay for your care

You’ve been doing it for years. Medicare and Medicaid.

@anon50325502

So, why should I have to pay (ie be accountable) for your disease?

Man, if these were the biblical days you’d be a shoe-in for the 13th disciple. So empathetic.

@anon50325502

I’m not against stem cells therapy

Unless they have clinical trials, you are.

@anon50325502

You claimed you understand because you’ve been through the system and I don’t understand because I’ve just read a theory or something like that. I pointed out I’ve both been a part of that system and lived it via a close family member.

But are still clueless as you haven’t been through it yourself. You only THINK you know.

@anon50325502

Stating a fact , in this case that it is the FDA that has kept Stem Cell therapy out of the US

They are just the servants for the oligarchy. If you actually believe that the pharma industry will lose billions along with the power that brings them, you are highlighting your naivety.

@anon50325502

Yes, they are both influenced, by lobbying or advertisements, but it is just that, influence.

A better word would be manipulate.

[Zeppelin795]

@anon50325502

Companies spend millions of dollars to combat competition

So how come this doesn’t apply to pharma?

Seeing how the majority of people believe that fast food is bad. It is vey telling that they still consume it. Lack of money? Could that be one of the reasons?

[Zeppelin795]

@anon50325502

Whoever said there will be no increased taxes?

I never said this. If you are spending less in taxes vs. healthcare premiums, how is it the price is going to cost you more?

[Zeppelin795]

And it’s okay to try as hard as you can to manipulate people, especially when money is a factor. As long as you’re making money, everything is A-Okay!

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

OH no! Admin costs for government healthcare is far lower. This can’t be. Better ask the Koch brothers and Fox News if it’s true?

If you think someone is wrong why can’t you just counter it with facts or, at least, an opinion from someone you believe is correct and is reputable? What the fuck do the Koch brothers (fyi they employee about 60,000 Americans) and Fox News, which I don’t watch, have to do with anything?

Admin costs might be lower. They will not likely be “far lower”. The information in your link is over 15 years old, is pre-obamacare, and does not include the increases in costs single-payer systems have seen over the last 5-10 years. In other words, this link does not address the current reality of healthcare costs.

Reading about the Founder’s circle was entertain, though.

ProCon.org Partners & Donors | ProCon.org

@Zeppelin795

That was not the question.

The premise of the question is incorrect as I’ve pointed out. This is a problem we often see with you.

@Zeppelin795

Care to provide any proof or should I just believe you?

You can just do your own research, but I already did provide the proof months ago. The average per capita cost of Medicare is over $10K (almost $11K). and the average cost per enrollee otherwise is about $5K.

@Zeppelin795

You’ve been doing it for years. Medicare and Medicaid.

Yes, I have, but that doesn’t make it right or fair.

@Zeppelin795

Man, if these were the biblical days you’d be a shoe-in for the 13th disciple. So empathetic.

That’s not an answer to the question. When can I expect a check in the mail from you to help me pay for the things I need to pay for?

@Zeppelin795

But are still clueless as you haven’t been through it yourself. You only THINK you know.

Gotcha. So why do you talk about economics, tax law, corporate finance, and accounting when you have no background or knowledge in the area?

@Zeppelin795

They are just the servants for the oligarchy.

And this is why these conversations are pointless. THe FDA holds the power. Pharmaceutical companies spend billions trying to influence them to use their power in their favor.

@Zeppelin795

A better word would be manipulate.

I obviously think more highly of the average American than you do.

@Zeppelin795

So how come this doesn’t apply to pharma?

When you see an advertisement for a drug the goal is for you to request it from your doctor. In other words, it’s for you to use that drug over a competing drug.

@Zeppelin795

Lack of money? Could that be one of the reasons?

In some cases, yes. In other cases, it’s convenience. In other cases, it’s laziness. In other cases, it’s that they like it. In still other cases, it’s a combination of the above and other reasons.

@Zeppelin795

I never said this.

You’re literally quoting your words…

@Zeppelin795

If you are spending less in taxes vs. healthcare premiums, how is it the price is going to cost you more?

I will not be spending less. I will be spending more. A portion of the population will pay less. The people that now pay insurance premiums, but under a single-payer would not see an increase in their taxes will save money. However, for everyone else, their costs will go up, for a couple of reasons:

1. They will need to subsidize the group in the previous sentence because someone has to pay for their care.

2. Most people will want to or need to subsidize their “free” single-payer insurance with private insurance to a) receive treatments not paid for under single-payer, b) not wait until just after they die to get an appointment or c) to receive better/the best care. These three things are almost a certainty. For this group, probably anyone that makes enough money to pay federal income tax, single-payer will be more expensive for them.

3. Employers shoulder a significant/majority of the insurance burden and if the new taxes aren’t structured correctly (unlikely, IMO) employees will be eating more of the burden.

This was my premium cost in 2017

The left ($2.9k) is me the right ($20.4k) is my employer. They paid 87.5% of my total premiums for a family of 4. $2.9k is like 1% of my household earnings. You think my effective taxe rate will only go up 1% with a new $3 TRILLION dollars program? That’s nonsense.

Single-payer might reduce admin costs purely because profits are removed, but again this has not, generally, been the case with government programs. We would probably need an entirely new department dedicated to single-payer or Medicare for all. The budget would almost certainly increase exponentially as all government projects do. The initial budget will be hilariously low as the setup costs will be astronomical (in the trillions). The economic impact of eliminating an enormous industry (insurance) will probably throw us into a recession (which will reduce tax revenue…). So on and so forth.

@Zeppelin795

And it’s okay to try as hard as you can to manipulate people, especially when money is a factor.

You think Bernie Sanders promising absurd entitlements isn’t trying to manipulate people? He’s doing it for power, which is equally bad if not worse.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is the new younger Sander’s promising completly absurd things in order to manipulate them into voting for her (and it worked). As have all politicians since the dawn of free elections.

@Zeppelin795

As long as you’re making money, everything is A-Okay!

If people stopped eating fast food, fast food would cease to exist.

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

Man, if these were the biblical days you’d be a shoe-in for the 13th disciple. So empathetic.

I pay gobs of my income to the federal government and the People’s Republic of Maryland to support all kinds of people and I donate my time and money to a number of charities all over the state/country.

You don’t have a clue who I am, what I do, or what I stand for.

[norse84]

You didn’t know it’s more compassionate to vote for the government to use force to extract other people’s hard earned money instead of donating and helping people yourself without the use of force? I’m literally shaking.

[anon50325502]

@norse84

I’m literally shaking.

Say whut? Free people freely helping others with their own money. Impossibru.

[Aragorn]

@Zeppelin795

And it’s okay to try as hard as you can to manipulate people, especially when money is a factor. As long as you’re making money, everything is A-Okay!

Unsurprisingly you either didn’t understand or deliberately mistook my post.

Nobody here has said or even implied it’s “ok” to try to manipulate people. That’s just in your head.

We do, however, know that it is UNAVOIDABLE that some people, somewhere, will try that. It has nothing to do with freedom of choice unless you’,re unable to reason.

[Zeppelin795]

@anon50325502

Admin costs might be lower. They will not likely be “far lower”. The information in your link is over 15 years old, is pre-obamacare, and does not include the increases in costs single-payer systems have seen over the last 5-10 years. In other words, this link does not address the current reality of healthcare costs

Have already posted information regarding this.

@anon50325502

Koch brothers (fyi they employee about 60,000 Americans)

So that is justification for what they do?

@anon50325502

Reading about the Founder’s circle was entertain, though.
https://www.procon.org/view.background-resource.php?resourceID=002640

Why would this be a problem for you? This seems to fit very well to your M.O. You just don’t like the conclusion.

@anon50325502

The premise of the question is incorrect as I’ve pointed out. This is a problem we often see with you.

So does private health insurance rise faster or government run healthcare insurance?

@anon50325502

The average per capita cost of Medicare is over $10K

And what about private healthcare?

@anon50325502

Yes, I have, but that doesn’t make it right or fair.

You would be paying less, if the government wasn’t bought and paid for by the oligarchy, but I’m sure you knew that fact. Are you having fun filling their pockets while assigning the majority of the blame on the government? Just like they’ve designed it.

@anon50325502

So why do you talk about economics, tax law, corporate finance, and accounting when you have no background or knowledge in the area?

Who says I have NO knowledge of these things? You think because you’ve been indoctrinated by the “education” system that you have specialized knowledge.

@anon50325502

Pharmaceutical companies spend billions trying to influence them to use their power in their favo

And it’s been working for how long? A good enough reason to get money out of politics. So there can be no more oligarchy.

@anon50325502

When you see an advertisement for a drug the goal is for you to request it from your doctor. In other words, it’s for you to use that drug over a competing drug.

So you admit the pharma industry is limiting competition anyway it can. It is the reason that stem cell therapy is not a choice in America for treatment of chronic/degenerative diseases. Even though it has been available in other countries for over a decade with great results and far less of a side effect profile. Pharma knows this will make a huge dent in their billion dollar+profit margins. It is the same reason they tried to make medicinal MJ a non-choice for Americans. Who cares if people have to suffer, we need to make more money.

@anon50325502

In some cases, yes. In other cases, it’s convenience. In other cases, it’s laziness. In other cases, it’s that they like it. In still other cases, it’s a combination of the above and other reasons.

In some cases. The Secret Engineering Of Junk Food Article | Hungry For Change

and https://www.journals.elsevier.com/journal-of-food-engineering

@anon50325502

A portion of the population will pay less

Yes, the overwhelming majority. But hey they should be responsible for paying for the current system as some people’s costs will rise. And this should not be allowed.

@anon50325502

• Most people will want to or need to subsidize their “free” single-payer insurance with private insurance.

A choice. Isn’t that what you like?

@anon50325502

probably anyone that makes enough money to pay federal income tax, single-payer will be more expensive for them.

So untrue.

https://www.healthcare-now.org/frequently-asked-questions/

@anon50325502

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is the new younger Sander’s promising completly absurd things

What absurd things?

[Zeppelin795]

I do have a clue of what you believe as your posts are replete with your rigid beliefs.

[Zeppelin795]

Try this.

Can Food Really Be Addictive? Yes, Says National Drug Expert | TIME.com

But, I guess this has very little effect because not everyone eats fast food and it is therefore not addictive at all. So as long as no one is having a gun pointed to their head it’s all good.

[dt79]

Look, if most people are really as dumb as you think they are, how can you trust them to make proper business decisions? How can co-ops succeed when controlled democratically by complete morons? How can you even trust them to vote in their own favor during an election? To vote for things that will not tank the economy? How can you trust people to even know what they really want?

Do you understand that it is this assumption and the gradual evolution of this thought process that eventually justifies the creation of a centralized, authoritarian government when socialism is implemented?

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

So that is justification for what they do?

Which is?

@Zeppelin795

Why would this be a problem for you? This seems to fit very well to your M.O. You just don’t like the conclusion.

It’s not a problem for me. I would think it would be a problem for you, which is why I pointed it out.

@Zeppelin795

So does private health insurance rise faster or government run healthcare insurance?

Do oranges taste better than apples?

@Zeppelin795

And what about private healthcare?

Next sentence.

@Zeppelin795

You would be paying less, if the government wasn’t bought and paid for by the oligarchy, but I’m sure you knew that fact.

No, I wouldn’t. My taxes would go up beyond my premiums.

@Zeppelin795

Are you having fun filling their pockets while assigning the majority of the blame on the government? Just like they’ve designed it.

usmccds423:

Umhhhmmm

@Zeppelin795

Who says I have NO knowledge of these things?

It’s pretty obvious.

@Zeppelin795

You think because you’ve been indoctrinated by the “education” system that you have specialized knowledge.

Lolz

@Zeppelin795

And it’s been working for how long? A good enough reason to get money out of politics. So there can be no more oligarchy.

Sounds great.

@Zeppelin795

So you admit the pharma industry is limiting competition anyway it can.

That isn’t limiting competition. That is competition.

@Zeppelin795

It is the reason that stem cell therapy is not a choice in America for treatment of chronic/degenerative diseases.

No, the FDA not allowing research of stem cell treatments (beyond what is allowed) is the main reason it is not a choice of therapy in the US.

@Zeppelin795

Yes, the overwhelming majority.

No, a significant portion because the tax code is favorable to those that make less than the median income, not the overwhelming majority.

@Zeppelin795

But hey they should be responsible for paying for the current system as some people’s costs will rise. And this should not be allowed.

Of course, you think this because you want a free ride.

@Zeppelin795

A choice. Isn’t that what you like?

That’s not a real choice single-payer is forced on them.

@Zeppelin795

So untrue.

Lol, whatever dude.

@Zeppelin795

What absurd things?

Her entire platform…

@Zeppelin795

I do have a clue of what you believe as your posts are replete with your rigid beliefs.

You’re a fucking idiot.

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

https://www.healthcare-now.org/frequently-asked-questions/

Oh, well shit, if HEALTHCARE-NOW! says so then fuck me it must be true…

Absurd.

*Median income is $46K. Sander’s proposed, among other taxes, a 4% individual income tax and a 7.5% payroll tax to pay for it. That’s $1,840 + $3,450 = $5,290. Average plan for a single person is about $5k. Median income earners break even while everyone that makes more than the median will pay more in taxes than they will save in premiums on average.

Slightly less than median income (mean less than half)

https://interactive.taxfoundation.org/income-tax-illustrated/#the-federal-income-tax-has-a-progressive-structure

**Also, keep in mind, those additional taxes are based on Sanders absurd estimate of the cost of Medicare for all, which literally no one else thinks will be that low.