T Nation

New Androgel 1.62 User, Trying to Stop, PCT?

T Nation, I need help!!!

I know that I am an idiot of not researching more about HRT and the effects that it will have on my boys, but hopefully I got on the issue in time to revert some of the damage done.

Background. I have been lifting weights since I was 21, about 14 years now pretty much non stop, 4-5 days per week, about 45 min plus cardio on some days. Usually I gained about 10 lb during winter, then dieted down in the summer, staying in 160-170 lb range, about 10-12% bf (5.7ft heigth). Last Summer, my libido went downhill after another cutting phase, on top of a lot of loss muscle. I have not had a physical in some time, so I found a local Primary doc that supposedly specializes in Hormone therapy.

The doc seemed helpful, listened to my concerns(was mostly loss of libido, weak erections but could still perform when needed) and ran a blood test and saliva test to check my hormone levels.

The doc was adamant to use a Saliva test for hormones as he feels that testing at the cell level is more superior to the blood tests.

Results:

Basically, he told me that he does not know why my body does not produce enough Testosterone, gave me a script for Androgel 1.62, 2 pumps per day and told me “see you in 6 month”. He did ask I was trying to make any children currently, informed that Androgel may not allow that.

He most definitely did not inform me that my balls will basically atrophy and this is basically drug educed castration.
Again, my fault for trusting a doc, fortunately I have a generally good health and did not have to deal with docs a lot in the past.

Thank god for this forums and some knowledge I already picked up by just readings some of the stickies.

Like for instance, the doc did not diagnose me with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism as he did not test for FHS or LH levels.

Now, here is the Question for you guys.

Can I stop using Androgel 1.62 and follow it with some kind of over the counter PCT?
I have used APE in the past and had moderate results, or will I need a prescription cycle of HCG and Anastrozole? I had been put on the gel about 5 month ago, I am on my 4th bottle and things are staring to feel bad in my testes for few weeks now. As with many, after about 2nd week, my previous low T symptoms were gone, I felt stronger in the gym, lifts were great, and libido was back like I was 20 again. Well, that was short lived, after about 2 month, the libido started to fade, and my testicles started to feel weird, smaller and tuck back into the body as described by many others. Now, this is something that just recently started, so I am assuming that my body started to shut my T production and my testicles are shutting down. To describe the feelings, its like having blue balls 24/7, sex is a chore now, and orgasms are non existent. Is the damage done? Morning wood is gone, my strength is still there, but that is not my concern.

Can I or should I stop cold turkey, pick up some test booster and hope for the best? I am due for a follow up visit with the doc in few weeks, I already collected the saliva test and blood test is due this weekend. Now, he is still not checking my FHS, LH levels in this current blood order.

My test levels was borderline low, but the test was done after my 5 month diet during the summer. What are the chances of bringing my levels to what it was and getting off this damned drug?

What do I need do besides asking to see an Ando? I want to have children some day, I dont want to let this drug take away my cohones? Please help?

-age 35
height 5.7
-waist 32
-weight 162
-describe body and facial hair: a lot of hair, I am practically a chubaka if I donâ??t shave, everywhere
-describe where you carry fat and how changed: some on stomach area and love handles, after the initial androgel kick I dot dryer, but lately fat came back.
-health conditions, symptoms [history] in great health: no issues prior to androgel.
-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever NONE
– real dangers! see this http://propeciahelp.com/overvi
-lab results with ranges
-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets] mostly low fat diet, chicken breast and veggies, some carbs. about 1500 to 2000 cal
-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training] for the past 14 years, 5 days per week, about 45 mins to 1 hour each work out.
-testes ache, ever, with a fever? Yes, after on Androgel 1.62 for about 3 month.
-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed working: wood was there, but gone in the last month, erections are now hard to gain and keep.

Test came back as: saliva ZTR Labs.
Estradiol out of range, <0.5 Range is 0.5 â?? 2.2 I assume this is good that my body did not convert test to Estrogen.
Estrone 1.2 Range is 0-3.0
Testosterone 58 Range 58-120 for my age group, 35-50
Cortisol AM 8.7 Range 3.7 â?? 9.5
Cortisol NOON 2.3 Range 1.2-3.0
Cortisol PM 0.4 Range 0.4-1.0

Blood test was done for T3 and vitamin D

Vitamin D 37 Goal 30-100
THS 3.02 Goal .4-4.50
T3 Free 3.2 Goal 2.3-4.2
Vitamin B12 508 Goal 200-1100

Read the thyroid basics stick, come back with body temps and iodine intake.

Poor response to T transdermals is a symptom of [possible] thyroid trouble and/or iodine deficiency.

Read the finding a TRT doc thread, not much hope for you doc, he is interested, but has not idea what he is doing.

You cannot do LH/FSH until you are off TRT and your body has responded. yes, PCT is an issue.

You can PCT with a SERM and anastrozole, hCG not mandatory.

Are those your pre or post TRT labs?

Thanks for the quick reply KSman. I did read your quicky on the thyroid basics yesterday, and picked up a thermometer after work.

So far, yesterday PM temp was 98.5
6.30 am this morning 96.9
7:10 am this morning 97.3

I am not supplementing with iodine and try to avoid salt as much as I can, according to pretty much all articles I have read prior to your post is that salt is bad, stay away. :frowning:

I will be picking up some supplement iodine after work, as well as some table salt and will monitoring and log my temps from now on.

The labs are done prior to TRT (Androgel), I just sent off another lab (saliva test mailed) and due for a blood test this Sat. I am pretty much sure that this will result in a lower T numbers, and elevated E2, I feel more bloated.

I did read your finding the TRT doc thread, my only concern is there are plenty of TRT age clinics here in FL, and the main bread and butter for them is to put and keep me on the therapy. Should I ask for an Endo referral from my doc. I am still planning to meet with him, and ask him for SERM and anastrozole. If he refuses, I will seek out another doc and go from there.

I am just glad I found this forum and can actually get some answers. Even the damn Wikipedia says to test for LH and FHS to determine Hypogonadism, I guess my doc missed the memo.

Funny thing is my insurance has a high deductible, so I have been paying $250 per bottle for this hand sanitizer with some test powder, I am more than positive the doc gets a huge kickback on ever patient he puts on this. He did offer me injections, but said he prefers the gel as it dos not require AI.

Should I continue to use Androgel? My testicles had not shrink a lot yet, and the weird feeling started about a month now, is the damage done? This morning I did not use the gel, and so far no pain in the testes as yesterday when I applied the gel.

T-gels are the worst for increasing E2.

We do not work with saliva lab results, just to not see enough to know what to make of them.

[quote]KSman wrote:
T-gels are the worst for increasing E2.

We do not work with saliva lab results, just to not see enough to know what to make of them.

[/quote]

I know about the test, the doc seemed very adamant of using this method, especially for the cortisol numbers, and he seemed pretty stubborn so I may run into issues with him.

I am dead set on not taking Androgel as I feel that my testes are not totally dead yet, the sack feels somewhat elevated, but it got better today as I have not used the gel, and no pain in the testes.
Anyways, I will try to get him to write papers for Clomid and Anastrozole and have a complete test re done in few month. If he refuses, Ill just shop somewhere else to find someone who will listen and help me.

I will update this once I have a follow up visit.

Had a follow up visit and useless saliva lab results.
My T went from 58 to 250, but they did not even account for me being on androgel.
The doc agreed that I am not a good gel candidate and for now will try to restart my own production with serm. He prescribed
Clomid but no AI? My Estradiol levels were good and he said at this time I don’t need an AI.

Should I be worried about Estrogen conversion while on Climid alone? I can try to score some AI online and, but I Serm and AI are done as PCT, what about if u just take clomid for 6month like he wants me too. The doc also knows about hcg but due to him being under Baptist umbrela he cannot prescribe it… plus I don’t want to fall into that rabbit hole…

So the question is, is Clomid by itself a good PCT? Do I need an AI if I were to use it for 6 month?

In the next visit, the doc wil have a blood test done instead of saliva, just to see if I respoond to Clomid.

Any help or suggestion guys?

Thanks.