T Nation

Never Mix Carbohydrates and fat!

I’m looking into gaining some lean body mass while on an extended cycle of M-10. I’ve read so many articles that advocate not combining carbs and fat in the same meal for fear of fat gain. However, has anyone ever used this type of diet to put on quality weight? I ask this because two extremely smart men (Bill Roberts and Cy Wilson) recommend against this. I forget their exact reasoning, but they say something about carbs being more valuable than fat.
However, there are other men out there that live by the P+F and P+C meals. One that standouts is a man named Swolecat. If you don’t know who he is he designs meal plans for people. And is a bodybuilder himself. I belive another who recommends this is John Berardi. And we all know his backround.
So my question is would this diet be an optimal way of putting on quality mass while taking androgens? Thank you

carbs raise insulin.
Insulin tells the body to store fat.
Therefore: Carbs + Fats = Body storing the Fats you eat while using the Carbs for energy

Bill and Cy are against it only when on androgens. Bill has stated that he agrees that the P+C and P+F are good for controlling insulin and fat gain.

I follow diet recommendations a la Polquin, who suggests there is nothing to the P+F/P+C meal coupling. I eat carbs, fats and protein w/ every meal and have no problem staying very lean or putting on mass if I up the calories.

Primarily P+C while on androgens, otherwise, both P+C and P+F.

I don’t think Poliquin thinks there is nothing to the P+C, P+F meals idea. Clearly there is. I think JB has done an excellent job proving this in his articles.

However, combining healthy fats w/ carbs is completely different than having sat. fats w/ hydrogenated crap and carbs that have a high GI and II. Doughnuts, pizza, big macs as carb&fat meals are completely different than having salmon w/ veggies and a sweet potato.

Also, I agree that while on androgens and trying to add lbm. you should reduce P+F meals and have mostly P+C meals.

Poliquin was asked once about food combining and he said it didn’t work. He was not asked about Berardi’s version of it. Like most people he was probably thinking of those old food combining ideas that were popular (and goofy) about 10 years ago.

Doesn’t matter much though. Poliquin’s juiced-up genetic marvel athletes can eat just about anything and get away with it.

You say that I should have MOSTLY P+C meals while on an androgen. Alright, agreed. Basically I need and want to consume whole eggs (For money resons, Im a broke college student) When should I include the P+F meal…1st meal of the day, last meal, or somewhere in between? Thank you

I think you should eat fat with your meals but just not alot. I have had great success for myself and others I have helped using Dr. Squats zigzag diet in which you eat less calories and carbs when you are not busy and more calories and carbs when you will be more active just make sure they are low GI except maybe the 1st meal after a workout.

P+F meal should be last… always.

If you work out earlier in the day then you could eat a P+F meal as your last meal. The reason why they are against P+C and P+F is because while on an androgen you want insulin levels to raise high which will lead to a greater muscle increase. Androgens usually allow one to eat more carbs without the fat gain. As long as you are getting in enough carbs through your other meals than I don’t see a problem with eating a P+F meal as your last meal.

Absolutely, Joel has the right Idea. P+C during a mass cycle or hypertrophy phase is the way to go. Poliquin actuallly wrote that the idea is great. He practices it with his meats and greens. You should have mostly p+c meals but include healthy fats with one meal though, like have a flank steak with 20g fish oil. Maybe with your first meal! if you train early have this type of meal a couple hours before training, then use a postworkout drink both during and after the training.

If you have a P+C meal after a P+F meal, the insulin would seem to lay down the fatty acids in your bloodstream from a P+C meal. A high protein, low carb, low fat meal in between P+F and P+C might help. But this whole issue is something we don’t nearly understand. Many P+F meals create peak insulin levels just as high as P+C meals. There are other factors that need research…

TO BOXER AL…Why do you recommend having the fat meal in the early morning as opposed to Machine’s post of always having it as the last meal? Can I substitue eggs for your flank stank & fish oil meal as well?

bump

I prefer the fat meal early since it will be your only one and you need to fit in those fish oils. Tampa-Terry has actually found that fish oil has a stimulant effect causing a person to loose sleep or basically making it harder to FALL asleep. So, during a hypertrophy phase you want to get those precious 8 hours of sleep, so don’t sacrifice sleep for meal timing.

Eggs for flank steak? sure, even lean beef, salmon, turkey, anything works in meat sources, but I highly recommend you fit those fish oil’s during this meal.

Da Boxer

Thanx BA