T Nation

Nevada Cattle Ranch

Anyone else following this closely? Information on the overall situation seems to be scarce with no mainstream media even touching it.

Militia groups are flocking there as best I can tell. Anyone else have some insight into this?

I’ve seen some, but it sounds like the guy just refused to pay an unfair tax. Right or wrong, we all have to pay unfair taxes and will end up in jail by gun point if we don’t. Oh, right, Pit says the guns are imaginary.

This is pretty interesting.

And I agree DD that it is a tax issue, but should the feds even have the right to that tax? This is the exact thing the first revolution was started over - unfair taxation.

And I hear they have sanctioned off particular areas of the ranch as 1st Amendment zones. Da fuq? Where you can only protest and speak your mind within that zone. Otherwise you will be arrested, stomped, or tasered by the feds.

This rancher’s family has been in use of this land for over 130 years. Kind of funny that now all of a sudden the feds want to step in.

The federal government started escalating its power 60 years ago. After the courts rejected much of Roosevelt’s social agenda, an idea was hatched. Liberals knew they could not change the Constitution to allow much of what they wanted, so Roosevelt tried to manipulate the Constitution through interpretation by appointing more liberals justices, though the court packing plan failed, the idea lived on.

Since then liberals have hijacked academia and taught liberal interpretations of the Constitution, the living document non- sense, which bends to allow nearly anything a liberal wants, including confiscation of state lands or cows on lands that should belong to the state.

Illegal immigrants are left alone by the Feds but a rancher is basically attacked. What a foul mess we have brewed in Washington. The US government owns nothing. The citizens of this country own this land.

There will be more of this, at least over here. The state is poised to start taking land via eminent domain to start building the High Speed Rail (which is still not certain to be legal.) The state is planning to take hundred of acres of farm land, in an area that is strongly Republican.

I hope to see more of shit like this, people standing up and giving a proverbial “fuck you” to the government.

[quote]Bauber wrote:

This is pretty interesting.

And I agree DD that it is a tax issue, but should the feds even have the right to that tax? This is the exact thing the first revolution was started over - unfair taxation.

And I hear they have sanctioned off particular areas of the ranch as 1st Amendment zones. Da fuq? Where you can only protest and speak your mind within that zone. Otherwise you will be arrested, stomped, or tasered by the feds.

This rancher’s family has been in use of this land for over 130 years. Kind of funny that now all of a sudden the feds want to step in.

The federal government started escalating its power 60 years ago. After the courts rejected much of Roosevelt’s social agenda, an idea was hatched. Liberals knew they could not change the Constitution to allow much of what they wanted, so Roosevelt tried to manipulate the Constitution through interpretation by appointing more liberals justices, though the court packing plan failed, the idea lived on.

Since then liberals have hijacked academia and taught liberal interpretations of the Constitution, the living document non- sense, which bends to allow nearly anything a liberal wants, including confiscation of state lands or cows on lands that should belong to the state.

Illegal immigrants are left alone by the Feds but a rancher is basically attacked. What a foul mess we have brewed in Washington. The US government owns nothing. The citizens of this country own this land. [/quote]

I agree, I just don’t think this tax is any worse or unjust that a million others. Good for the guy that has the balls to say “enough” though. But it would be the same treatment for any of us that defied the government, just or not.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

This is pretty interesting.

And I agree DD that it is a tax issue, but should the feds even have the right to that tax? This is the exact thing the first revolution was started over - unfair taxation.

And I hear they have sanctioned off particular areas of the ranch as 1st Amendment zones. Da fuq? Where you can only protest and speak your mind within that zone. Otherwise you will be arrested, stomped, or tasered by the feds.

This rancher’s family has been in use of this land for over 130 years. Kind of funny that now all of a sudden the feds want to step in.

The federal government started escalating its power 60 years ago. After the courts rejected much of Roosevelt’s social agenda, an idea was hatched. Liberals knew they could not change the Constitution to allow much of what they wanted, so Roosevelt tried to manipulate the Constitution through interpretation by appointing more liberals justices, though the court packing plan failed, the idea lived on.

Since then liberals have hijacked academia and taught liberal interpretations of the Constitution, the living document non- sense, which bends to allow nearly anything a liberal wants, including confiscation of state lands or cows on lands that should belong to the state.

Illegal immigrants are left alone by the Feds but a rancher is basically attacked. What a foul mess we have brewed in Washington. The US government owns nothing. The citizens of this country own this land. [/quote]

I agree, I just don’t think this tax is any worse or unjust that a million others. Good for the guy that has the balls to say “enough” though. But it would be the same treatment for any of us that defied the government, just or not.[/quote]

Very true, which is fucked up in itself.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’ve seen some, but it sounds like the guy just refused to pay an unfair tax. Right or wrong, we all have to pay unfair taxes and will end up in jail by gun point if we don’t. Oh, right, Pit says the guns are imaginary.[/quote]

Or the Gov will just work up a No. 6 on them.

I’m somewhat familiar with land ownership and the fracking process. The article states," hydraulic fracturing techniques that inject toxic chemicals into groundwater supplies", that may or not be true. I live in PA where the fracking is a hot issue. I do know that oil and natural gas are sometimes found in the same location; PA had one of the first oil drilling sites. The current owner of the property is nicely compensated for their mineral rights for any fracking.

I am not sure of the land laws in Nevada but in PA, the system works like this. The actual ownership of the land belongs to the “Commonwealth” (PA is not a state but that’s for another time) and is “Deeded” to the property owner. Who we think of as the owner has possession that is called “Fee Simple” in which you agree to several conditions such as paying taxes. This is how your property can be taken for unpaid taxes and sheriffed. Was that the issue here?

On another note, we have a government organization called the Pennsylvania National Diversity Inventory. It is in place to “Protect” endangered species, plant or animal. They showed up a little to late for the dinosaurs but if they had their way the dinosaurs would still be here and we’d be gone.

We need to remember that government can not overstep their bounds when they are the ones who draw the lines.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’ve seen some, but it sounds like the guy just refused to pay an unfair tax. Right or wrong, we all have to pay unfair taxes and will end up in jail by gun point if we don’t. Oh, right, Pit says the guns are imaginary.[/quote]

need I say more

This is a 20 year old dispute. It’s not his land to be grazing on and he doesn’t want to pay the fees. Is that fair for all of the other ranchers who do lawfully pay the fees? That is to say that you can’t buy grazing rights, not pay the fee, and expect there to be no consequences.

And the militia from other states need to mind their own business, this is a Nevada issue.

james

[quote]doublelung84 wrote:
Who we think of as the owner has possession that is called “Fee Simple” in which you agree to several conditions such as paying taxes. This is how your property can be taken for unpaid taxes and sheriffed. Was that the issue here?
[/quote]

Somewhat yes. I believe the story so far is that the rancher has been on the same land since the 1870s (family owned legacy), and that some time in the 90s his allotment of “public” land to graze on was reduced to protect a certain species of tortoise. This was the genesis of the issue–he refused to cooperate–continuing to let his cattle graze the original allotment–and also has ceased to pay grazing fees on it.

[quote]From CNN: " Bundy’s dispute with the government began about 1993 when the bureau changed grazing rules for the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area to protect an endangered desert tortoise, KLAS reported.

Bundy refused to abide by the changes and stopped paying his grazing fees to the federal bureau, which he contends is infringing on state rights. His family has been ranching since the 1800s, before the U.S. Department of Interior was created and endangered species became a federal issue, he said in an interview with KLAS.

“My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed,” Bundy told the station."

And Bundy sees it as a state issue.

“The federal government has seized Nevada’s sovereignty … they have seized Nevada’s laws and our public land. We have no access to our public land and that is only a little bit of it,” he said. This week, Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval told the bureau of residents’ criticism of the roundup.

What Sandoval said he found “most disturbing” was the BLM’s use of a “First Amendment area” that confined protesters to a designated area.
Such an area “tramples upon Nevadans’ fundamental rights under the U.S. Constitution,” Sandoval said. “No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans.” [/quote]

If his competition is paying the fees he is asking for a special deal that could give him an advantage over his competition

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

And the militia from other states need to mind their own business, this is a Nevada issue.

james[/quote]

This is a bigger issue than just not paying fees. If it were just about not paying fees aka illegal taxes imo, Bundy would have simply been arrested. Why the large show of force? Millions of dollars spent when we would not even put that kind of show of force to save Americans in Benghazi or keep illegals out of our country. But BY GOD WE WILL TO GET OUR TAXES.

It does concern every American, not just Nevada. This is a larger issue of government overreaching and overstepping their bounds. But being from California, I wouldn’t expect you to understand.

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

And the militia from other states need to mind their own business, this is a Nevada issue.

james[/quote]

This is a bigger issue than just not paying fees. If it were just about not paying fees aka illegal taxes imo, Bundy would have simply been arrested. Why the large show of force? Millions of dollars spent when we would not even put that kind of show of force to save Americans in Benghazi or keep illegals out of our country. But BY GOD WE WILL TO GET OUR TAXES.

It does concern every American, not just Nevada. This is a larger issue of government overreaching and overstepping their bounds. But being from California, I wouldn’t expect you to understand.
[/quote]

You do realize that atypical is a veteran of both the US Army and Marine Corps, no? The militias are a fucking joke. A bunch of grown men who are playing GI Joe to distract themselves from their shallow intellects and inconsequential existences.

I am not quite sure what the GOV was doing exactly but the group of non GOV people were clearly trying to incite the GOV types

Think the relationship has some truth to it?

I actually live in the town where this is going on, it’s pretty crazy. It’s a small town, and to be getting this much attention is very out of the ordinary. It’s nice to see the Bundy’s stand up to the government.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

And the militia from other states need to mind their own business, this is a Nevada issue.

james[/quote]

This is a bigger issue than just not paying fees. If it were just about not paying fees aka illegal taxes imo, Bundy would have simply been arrested. Why the large show of force? Millions of dollars spent when we would not even put that kind of show of force to save Americans in Benghazi or keep illegals out of our country. But BY GOD WE WILL TO GET OUR TAXES.

It does concern every American, not just Nevada. This is a larger issue of government overreaching and overstepping their bounds. But being from California, I wouldn’t expect you to understand.
[/quote]

You do realize that atypical is a veteran of both the US Army and Marine Corps, no? The militias are a fucking joke. A bunch of grown men who are playing GI Joe to distract themselves from their shallow intellects and inconsequential existences. [/quote]

I never said anything about the militias being some consequential righteous intellectual group.

I do believe in people standing up for themselves though. And if others want to stand with them, that is their right regardless of who they are.

"… whenever the Legislators endeavour to take away, and destroy the Property of the People, or to reduce them to Slavery under Arbitrary Power, they put themselves into a state of War with the People, who are thereupon absolved from any farther Obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence. … [Power then] devolves to the People, who have a Right to resume their original Liberty, and, by the Establishment of a new Legislative (such as they shall think fit) provide for their own Safety and Security, which is the end for which they are in Society."
John Locke, (Second Treatise of Civil Government [1690])

“The legislature acts against the trust reposed in them, when they endeavour to invade the property of the subject, and to make themselves, or any part of the community, masters, or arbitrary disposers of the lives, liberties or fortunes of the people”. (Second Treatise, Chapter 19).

Locke can always say it better than I can.

[quote]Bauber wrote:
This is a bigger issue than just not paying fees. If it were just about not paying fees aka illegal taxes imo, Bundy would have simply been arrested. Why the large show of force? Millions of dollars spent when we would not even put that kind of show of force to save Americans in Benghazi or keep illegals out of our country. But BY GOD WE WILL TO GET OUR TAXES.

It does concern every American, not just Nevada. This is a larger issue of government overreaching and overstepping their bounds. But being from California, I wouldn’t expect you to understand.
[/quote]

There’s no need for insults. You know nothing about me or what my beliefs are. Furthermore there’s more rural and conservative land here in California than the entire state of Mississippi. Did you know that 80% of California is rural?

How much can you know about Bhengazi? Ever pulled embassy duty? Same with people here illegally. How big of a problem can it possibly be in a state that doesn’t share a border with a foreign country? The militia’s don’t know anything about what’s going on in rural Nevada. They are simply trying to act tough.

Anyway, my heartburn with this is that the guy was more than willing to just quietly not pay the grazing fees for 20 years. During this time if it really bothered him why didn’t he take this case up to court? Why didn’t he take legal action against the government instead of just being quiet about it? It was only when they actually took action against him that he made a big stink. He should have been up in arms well before this.

Did the BLM overreact? Probably. Is this guy wasting taxpayer money by not fighting his own fight much sooner? Definitely.

james