TRT in order. What else could it be?

On the B12 point, my tests showed 641 pg/ml on a scale of 211-946. So I’m guessing B12 deficiency isn’t my problem?

Yeah, I killed my E2 before, and that is worse than low T causing ED. I expect the anxiety is not related to your sex hormone levels. Its more likely a brain condition, and you might be low or lacking something else. Do some research on B12. I got mine from a feed store, where they sell veterinary supplies. You can find it also from many online sources. You can’t really OD on B12 so get some and take it. If you don’t need it, it won’t make you feel better, but if you happen to be deficient it might be the magic bullet!

Do you have IBS? IBS is often a misdiagnosed B12 deficiency. Studies suggest 50% of people in their middle years and later years are B12 deficient. B12 deficiency is associated with many conditions that people attribute to getting old.

Oh yeah, I missed that up top.

Yeah, ED, no more morning wood and libido are starting to frustrate me the most alongside the inability to lose weight. I will stop by and get some as GNC as 1,000 mcg drops for $11. Like you said, it’s worth a try. Were you saying that low E was also causing those ED problems and such? If so, that surprises me as no one has really ever said that those two have been connected.

E2 at 5 is very low. It will cause joint pain and horrible ED, Acne problems, tiredness, brain fog, depression, etc. You need E2 around 20-30 to feel good and have normal sex drive. At one point I was taking way too much AI and dropped mine into single digits. Search out my thread on it. I finally realized it was my E2 causing my problems. I quit taking an AI at that point. Now I only take a few drops of liquid Adex every few weeks to make my E2 fluctuate a little. I usually see a little better erection quality a few days later that lasts a few days to a week. Overall my E2 stays in the mid 20’s without an AI, but I also take only a small dose of T, about 80-90mg week.

Ok, so update!

On the 1,200 mg T pellet injections my T went up to 687 after 2 months, but has fallen back down to 300 after an additional two months. I absorbed fully two months ahead of schedule. During this time, my E climbed to 28 and has remained somewhat steady.

After talking to the doctor, they cancelled my tablet insertion for today and wants me to try Clomid with a prescription for Anastrozole, if needed. Haven’t done the research on Clomid, but at 35 years old, they really think that my natural production could come back online.

I start next week with a 3 month dose and will do bloodwork after 4 weeks. The three month dose is $485 at 25 mg per day for three weeks and then three weeks off.

Three questions…

  1. Thoughts on moving to Clomid as my TRT
  2. Cheaper quality supply of Clomid?
  3. Things to watch out for, timing of feeling better, etc?

Plus any questions you may have because I’m sure I’m not thinking of everything. Thanks you!

Personally – I wouldn’t recommend Clomid as a longer-term TRT solution. Sure, it can work to boost your T levels , assuming you are secondary hypogonadism, by stimulating your pituitary – but it’s not meant for long-term use – and has a ton of side effects.

From looking at your labs – which look fantastic by the way other than the estradiol – and I would bet the low E2 is what was causing all of your symptoms for sure. Crashing your estrogen has almost the exact same side effects as having estrogen too high – and ED is a big one.

I haven’t read too many good things about the pellets – would it be possible for you to switch to a gel or an injection that would offer much more stable and controlled levels – which could potentially help alleviate your symptoms

Thank you for your note and for trying to help. I am so confused and at the end of my rope. Everyone has a different opinion and, as of yet, none of them have worked. I appreciate all of the feedback, but no one can seem to pinpoint how I can get my numbers up to satisfactory levels. My next plan is to just quit trying altogether and rule out the chance of having a good life. Way to go, mid 30’s and life over.

I’ve been through multiple GP’s, endo’s, private firms, consultants and and spent $10,000 or more to figure out why I feel like shit ALL THE TIME. Nothing has worked. NOTHING! I’ve done creams, gels, injections, pellets and multiple variations of injection therapy. My numbers never seem to get high, or if they do, like the mid 600’s with the pellets, they die down quickly and only seem to solve a few of the problems.

I have been taking body temperature and it hovers between 96.5 and 97.5 most of the time. This is something KSman has pointed out, but after reading SO MUCH on the topic, I’m more confused than ever. Honestly, I appreciate everyone’s help, but once again, I am left no where better.

The end!

P.S. and before anyone says anything ridiculous, Yes, I have had workups and research done at Johns Hopkins, psychologists, Eastern medicine specialists, acupuncturists, hypnotists and countless other specialists. I’ve been on anti-depressents because everyone just said i was depressed and I’ve taken out every food known to man that might have some chance of causing a reaction. I have more supplements than GNC and I’m down to a few foods I eat. I’ve done sleep studies, I tried to address adrenal fatigue, I’ve looked at my thyroid in every way possible and I have no known diseases or cancers.

There is nothing left…

I was looking at some of your older posts on your prior protocols – and it seems that the injectable schedule / dosing was way off. You don’t take a massive amount of hCG once per week – no wonder why your estrogen spiked and you had a roller coaster. Your original testosterone dose was too high also causing a roller coaster.

Can you try test cyp two times a week with HCG 350 IU three times a week – with Adex .5 with the HCG?

I think most guys get the best bang for the buck with the injectable with the hCG – you had bad advice from idiot doctors which only cause you more problems – but it maybe worth a revisiting.

Don’t give up bro – check around this site for some of the protocols that guys here use – and give that a try – at least they are tried-and-true

I know it sounds like a bunch of bullshit, but when you’ve been trying to figure this out for so long with no satisfactory results, and a current T of around 150, things tend to look a little bleak. Hopefully someone here remembers that feeling and understands. I barely want to breathe I am so exhausted these days.

With regards to IM injections, it just seems like a lot to do that twice a week for the rest of my life. I wanted to find other possible alternatives like the pellets. The reason I agreed to try Clomid was becasue of the hope that I’m a secondary and my own production might kick on. After reading stuff here, NO ONE seems to think that is a good idea and I can’t understand why???

Doing injections twice a week, HCG three times a week and Adex for the rest of my life seems excessive and VERY expensive. I’m just in a bad place, bitching like a girl and don’t see my options too well. And I can bitch like a girl because I have the T and E of a girl!!!

I didn’t realize you were attempting a restart. In that case run Clomid 25 mg EOD and get tested in a month. You will know if it it works pretty quickly and should start feeling better in about 10 days but run it a month and get bloods and post back. You won’t need an AI given your values.

Thank you Jim. I’m going through a tough time and appreciate the feedback. I’m not certain in the least about a “restart” but my newest endo has been begging me to try. He said the exact same thing, give it a month, do blood work and evaluate. I’m just not certain as to the longterm plan as many posts in here say that this is a short term approach and ultimately most people return to injections, HCG and Adex (sp?).

One problem talked about in these posts, with regards to Clomid, is that the E levels gets high even with an AI because of some function within the testes and that high E is hard to regulate on with Clomid. High T is no good if you have High E, is my understanding.

Also, reading a lot about low body temps and have started taking Iodine, Vitamin A, D, E, B and Selenium. Also started taking high grade coconut oil from the Bulletproof diet. My body temperature is rarely above 97 degrees, but my Thyroid has been checked 6 ways to Sunday. I’d ultimately like to figure out why I am a Secondary Hypo because I used to be ok ten years ago. Now I have to deal with sour moods, exhaustion, weight gain, bad sleep, very few erections, soft erections, no libido and a whole host of other problems.

There is some key link here and I haven’t been able to find it…even with some of the best docs/specialists in my region. Crowdsourcing answers has always seemed to be the best route if you can navigate through the opinions, wivestales and bad advice.

That’s my quest…My early 30’s (30-35) have been ruined by this…time to figure it out or write off the whole journey altogether.

P.S. I won’t need an AI, but my most recent bloodwork had my E at 28…wouldn’t the Clomid push me above the upper range pretty quickly? My bloodowrk shows a range of 15-30.

So regarding your Clomid dosing - yes you probably would want to run a little bit of an AI – maybe .25mg 2x / week. I was looking at older labs where your E2 was crashed. (I just ran the same protocol and had great results but it kicked my E up too high but I don’t respond that well to Adex). This will tell you one way and for all if your pituitary is able to make the signals to increase your testosterone. If after a month your levels look good – then you taper a bit for a week or two – then get blood checked again about a month after your last dose which will be the true test to see if you were able to maintain the test Levels. If either of these blood test come back with bad results – then unfortunately it’s TRT time for life. Don’t beat yourself over the head and try to figure out why – sometimes the pituitary just doesn’t fire right - the same way people get diabetes when they get in their way 20s or 30s –

Should this be the case, then I would highly suggest you start a proper injection protocol – and you could see some of the stickies here and the forums .posts for dosing guidelines and injection frequency. Yes, it’s going to be a pain in the ass to pin hCG three times a week and testosterone two times per week – but hopefully it would help.

Just take one thing at a time bro, run the Clomid and see how things go. Hopefully this will do the trick. Also – I will personally would recommend dosing the Clomid at night before bedtime – seems to have less side effects that way.

Let us know how you are doing.

Can’t thank you enough Jim. This is why I hate our current medical system. You shared more rational thinking with me in that one post, than any medical professional has in the past five years.

I get the Clomid next Tuesday, but the doctor did not prescribe the Anastrozole because she said, “You won’t need it with Clomid.” She will prescribe it if I make a stink…think I should?

Also, you hit the nail on the head, if this does not work, I am going back to an injection protocol. For the record, I don’t mind the HCG injections one bit, it is the IM ones in the thigh that really annoy me because of the constant sore thigh. I’ve tried to do my glute, but I just don’t seem flexible enough to do that region very well.

if it wasn’t for the near constant sore thigh, I would have stuck, no pun intended, with the injection protocol.

Sorry for dual posts, but have any info on AI’s? I have only used Anastrozole, but people talk a lot about Adex. Not sure where to learn the REAL deal about these different options. I can search the internet, but it is full of dirty info from the drug companies and their lackies.

No problem bro – that’s what these forums are all about -so we can help each other and share information.

Just give the Clomid a try – and see where you end up. By the way – if you do you have to go back to injections – the current protocol is to inject testosterone SubQ - same way you do hCG – so you’re not gonna have those painful IM injections. This technique has the added benefit of reducing the aromatization of testosterone due to the slower rate of absorption – but the positive results appear identical to IM - so nothing is lost.

Regarding the AI – your doctor is probably right – you don’t really need it. Even if your estrogen shoots up a bit – which it will – it’s only for a couple of weeks – and you’ll see this with the blood test in a month and can adjust with an AI.

You had another post about the differences between Adex and Aromasin. They work differently to achieve the same objectives. Adex stops your body from producing the estrogen in the first place by blocking the Aromatase enzyme. Aromasin actually destroys circulating estrogen in the body after it’s been aromatized.

I’ve known many folks on TRT, as well as bodybuilders that swear by one or the other. I believe the Adex is used more on TRT because a smaller dose can achieve the same thing. Aromasin has some advantages – touted in the bodybuilding world – in that it’s slightly androgenic - so there is a thought that people could get some minor strength gains – and supposedly this is a little bit better on your lipid profile than Adex - but again everything is dose-dependent. You need to take a lot more Aromasin (like 12.5 mg EOD) than Adex (typically .5-1mg per Week).

Personally, I would go with Adex – since this is common in TRT protocols.

Anastrozole is Adex by the way. Aromasin is also known as Exemestane.

Wow! You blew my mind in two ways. I’ve never heard about sub injections and would really like to know where I can get information for that sort of protocol. None of the doctors that I have met have ever mentioned anything like this. That would be a game changer. Is it a different type of T-cyp since it is sub-q?

Also, I thought Anastrozole and Adex were different and always thought Adex was an E destroyer, not an E production stopper. That is probably why my numbers were crashing because I was looking at my numbers right after taking the AI and wondering why my numbers weren’t lower. So I would take more and it would probably crash the production for a long time and part of the reason why I felt like a horrid zombie of a soul.

This helps a lot. I will follow the Clomid protocol you mentioned, wait to take any AI, get the bloodwork in a month, take the Clomid at night, try to raise my body temperature and see where that all gets me.

Anything I’m missing?

P.S. Can you enlighten me ont eh sub-q test protocol I have never heard of and also, I was using using IMT as a source for my portocol last year, but wanted to know of their rep and if any other suggestions should I go to a new protocol of injection if the Clomid does not work. Thanks!

P.P.S Doctor sent 50 mg powdered pills of Clomiphene…should i try to cut them into 25 mg doses???

JimGainz you out there? :slight_smile:

Hey Guys!

So update…feeling better and far less ups and downs after three weeks of bi-weekly SubQ injections with HCG. But feel like there is something else plaguing me. My sleep is still not great, my mental clarity is not great, gained 5 pounds and fat loss seems to be impossible. I’ve definitely put on some muscles, but haven’t seen good fat loss. My temperatures each morning start at 96.5-96.8 and move up to about 97.5 at most. I’m taking Selenium and Iodine to see if that helps thyroid function to improve fat loss, libido, mental clarity, sleep, etc even more, but not seeming to make a difference.

My Question: after reading the stickies for the hundredth time…I’m wondering about my rT3. Here are my latest numbers:

T3 = 3.4 (2-4.4)
T4 = 1.52 (.82-1.77)
TSH = 1.32 (.27-4.2)
Vit D = 38.7 (30-100)

but rT3 was 28.4 (9.2-24.1)

Since my Thyroid numbers look nearly perfect, does this mean that my rT3 is filling in my T3 receptors and indicative of Adrenal Fatigue? With my TT, FT, E and other number in check with new TRT schedule, and Thyroid numbers really good, it is all I have left to comprehend why I still have the issues mentioned above.

Is there something I’m missing?