T Nation

Need Help Selecting Gear


The gear guy got some stuff in and if I could I would take it all. I felt like a kid in a candy store looking at all the stuff he had. not much to choose from but tons of those stuff.

Parabolan 100mg (Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate)
propionate 100mg
sustamed 250mg(sustanon)
dianabol 10mg (pink or orange pills..cant remember which was which)
anadrol mg..? (not sure which was the pink or orange)
enenthate 250mg
deca 200mg

Im getting the suspension and parabolan for sure..I am worried a bit about my liver as I did blood tests and I have to do more tests..from what he said he doesnt see an issue though.

I did use propionate (50mg ED) previously and didnt feel such a punch like I did with deca.

How toxic is the tren over a long time? 2 per week be enough?

Would like to add strength but hate the water retention and the way I feel. I got some furosemide 20mg amps(3) as well. could I use this to keep WR in check?

Im basically looking for the best bang for the buck.

Thanks in advance.


Don't use any orals then.

Propionate is an estered testosterone, I assume... you should still use testosterone if you're using nandrolone, its not one or the other.

2 per week of what? ml? There are really no long term studies on humans as trenbolone is for animals. But use it as others do and you should be fine.

Why don't you treat the cause of the water retention (excess estrogen) by using an AI such as Arimidex at .5mg EOD?

Apparently you have used test prop and nandrolone decanoate before... did this work well for you and at what doses? Have you done other cycles? What are you trying to accomplish? Have you used tren before? Maybe you should post a cycle you're thinking of and get some people's thoughts on it.

IMO, you can't go wrong some test enanthate at 500mg/wk and then use some test prop to "kick start" the cycle for the first 4 weeks (seeing as you want to avoid orals due to your liver situation).


The more Im on these forums the more I realize we have some really intelligent folks here. TRTblastcruise youre a help to us baboons who dont know anything..HAHA

Yes, no matter what I use, I always use test as I must get TRT (since 15-because of Addisons disease)

I meant 2 (200mg total of tren)amps per week..is that really enough?

furosemide amps is what he has. As much as I want to get certain things it's problematic with getting consistent stock. I order tren, he gets deca, I order primo he brings suspension. wait a second , I can proabaly get tamoxifen citrate. I previously got nolvadex through my doc years back. Maybe i'll go back and tell him that my chest/nipples are hurting.

Ive done cycles before, but basically ive been on gear for 6 months now. I did deca for 4 months and I think my body got used to it because it had no effect whether I injected 400mg or 1200mg. so I did a 2 month break and the last week Ive been back on. I spread my injections throughout the week so 500mg per week. I inject everyday as I dont like spikes I feel.

I take:

Tren A 250mg per week
suspension 700mg per week
deca 500mg per week
sustanon 750mg per week
primo 200mg per week

Yea, I know..A lot. Im just not growing though. I could shove twice this amount and still nothing would happen. Although the weights did go up on many exercises.


Man, what I really think you should do is take some time off, 6 months at least. Stick with your replacement dose, or even 200mg/wk if it makes you feel better, of just testosterone. There is no reason why you should be needing all of that, and even more so, when none of it is working for you; something has got to change. Adding more stuff is not going to do anything differently, you're already maxed out.

You've got
1450mg of test (assuming your TRT amount is not considered separate from that),
500mg deca
250mg tren a
200mg primo

2.4g per week

So you're doing at least 1 shot everyday, if not multiple seeing as you're using suspension and probably 16.5ml of gear per week? Am I confused - do you mean you are using all of this now or you have used all of these compounds at those various doses over different time periods?

You shouldn't have a problem getting arimidex if you're on TRT. It should be considered as a very reasonable request. But that's beside the point - just adding more stuff on top of that laundry list is not going to change anything.


Does the body adapt and the effect is low when you use a lot of gear non stop? how do the big boys get away with using so much nonstop?

I cant have kids (again addisons disease) nor do I want any. I would like to stay on non stop if I could or till my funds get low.

Yes, this is the amount I use now. Primo is almost done, and the TrenA would be replaced with the parabolan.

We dont have Arimidex here. I can get Tamoxifen. Is that a decent substitute to help with water retention?

Im trying to see how I can phrase this properly but is it smart/more effective if one uses many different gear (substances) in smaller dosages than 2-3 at regular doses ? meaning the same amount of gear in volume but taking 6 different stuff compared to 3?


Its better to take more frequent injections than fewer injections if volume will be the same with either method. Stable blood levels.

Tamoxifen would be better than basically something that only affects water retention as estrogen is the cause of the water retention. I think its better to treat the cause then just treat a symptom.

I believe the body adapts, which is why I think a majority of those who stay on always will blast and cruise instead of just massive doses always. Don't quote me though as I don't know all of the "big boys", as you say, so I don't know what their actual regimen is like. But I would assume there are cruising periods, albeit at rather un-modest test doses.

And taking the 2 months off did nothing in terms of better gains once coming back on? It will take several weeks for the longer estered compounds to build up in your system again.

As for your actual compounds, forget primo all together. And have you just stopped growing, is that the issue? Have you made sure to increase calories alongside bodyweight increase? Have you added volume? I think I read a thread about you training once every 4 or 5 days... Be a fan of HIT, that's fine, but you can stomach PLENTY more volume than once every 4 days when you're using nearly 2.5 grams of gear.

Maybe that's what is the issue, maybe you need to revamp your training and diet.


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Thanks for all the help I appreciate it.

I was using the other gear and recently just added deca.

Its hard to get primo and im not 100% certain it was legit. And yes, I just stopped growing.

Oh so you read the nonstop bashing of my tight polo shirt HAHAHA!!! I did try every 3 days but was exhausted going in the gym and my workouts sucked. so much so I had to go home in the middle. 1 workout, I did 1 set of squats and couldnt continue. I was in pain. not muscle pain but bone pain. same with other workouts. I fight with myself. btw is it ok to have muscle soreness for 3-5 days after a workout? its like this all the time.

diet is very clean actually and stayed the same:

1-140g whole wheat bread/250g cottage chees
2-whey protein shake
3-160g chicken breast/140g brown rice
4-160g chicken breast/140g brown rice
5-160g salmon/140g brown rice
6-160g sirloin/ 140 whole wheat bread
7-whey protein shake

I didnt add calories because I wanted to gain muscle while trying to not add body fat. I would rather go the slow way and add muscle then bulk up with fat/water then try to remove it next year. I just hate the water/bloat feeling feeling. I feel very conscious and uncomfortable.


It's my experience that you are going to have to eat to gain, plain and simple. While it's possible to gain muscle with minimal fat gain while on cycle, it's very slow going and training and diet need to be as near perfect as possible. I found that even while eating ridiculous diet ( dirty bulk is an understatement) I stay relatively lean while on cycle. My guess is that HIT isn't the best method of training for you. Get you GPP up to par and try focusing on getting stronger in the big three with lower rep ranges and do assistance work to compliment this lifts in moderate rep ranges. If you are truly doing hit and annihilating a muscle group I can see prolonged soreness of muscle and maybe even the "bone" pain from addisons being an issue. I think more volume coupled with some strength work and extra cals would do you some good.

I also have to agree that a 4-6 month break from aas with only your trt test dose could do you some good. Give those AR a break. At 2gram + a week and still not growing you need to look at other parts of the equation and change those variables before adding yet more aas or simply changing the compounds.

I'm not as well educated in aas as trt or BBB but I feel getting the "basic" of training and diet dialed in will make a world of difference.

As far as adex...if your doc won't prescribe any, you could look into research chems. I'm not a huge fan but if it's a real concern you could give them a try for relatively cheap.

Hope this help...and buy a bigger shirt lol


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I'm not a Doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

I think the root of the problem is you not getting into the gym enough, not lifting enough, not forcing your muscles to grow etc. But it's not your fault, I think it's commendable you even go to the gym with the fatigue you have to deal with that others don't.

Most importantly:
Throw that 3 year old polo away.
We make it in XXL.
It's supposed to be worn untucked. (that's why their so damn short!)
Good luck.


LOL... yes I stumbled across your tight polo shirt bashing thread. What people don't understand is that Hollister and Abercrombie make shirt sizes for only the stick figure men that are all the rage with their women's jeans..... point being, they don't have any bigger shirts!

Is bone soreness a symptom of addisons? Muscle soreness is not a bad thing, but bone soreness does not sound good. I feel really at a loss as I know nothing of Adison and how it will affect a path in bodybuilding. But, I will restate my earlier premise;
Cut back on everything for awhile.
Remain on TRT.
Try some different training styles: less sets to failure - I do maybe 1 or 2 sets to failure per body part per week nowadays and my strength and size has never been better - greater volume, but higher reps - 10-12 reps with a little left in the tank, or even some powerlifting style workouts that will push your strength, but won't cause excessive muscle teardown through failure training - just some ideas
Try eating different - don't eat so perfectly clean, get some excess calories in
Then, rebuild the cycle, from the ground up 6 months down the road. Test base, maybe one other compound. There is no need for all those compounds.

It'll feel like forever, but I'm sure you'll be in a much better place at that point then the over saturated, depleted, and frustrated state you're in right now.

Good luck

EDIT: Take BBB's diet advice over mine, I'm just guessing and its more of a science for him.


Thank for the great info. There, removed my avatar. no more trouble for anyone...:slightly_smiling:

I had a blood test about 3 months ago and my sugar level was 40, so the dr called me to run to the ER as I was in danger of death as he said. I went, they did blood tests..all was ok. I went home. this has happened other times where I lift a weight and it just falls to the ground and I black out for 2-3 seconds. I have no energy. it happens once every 2 weeks. sometimes worse other times mildly. yesterday I did my aerobics (50min)and I was hallucinating. I couldnt walk straight. the street was rocking back and forth. Im hoping its not diabetes. this issue has been like this for years. hasnt gotten worse. It happened when I trained years ago as well. I take isostar with me to my workouts the last 2 months.

I also have a bad vitaminD deficiency. the dr told me to take 800iu+ in drops. I take 2000 in 2 caplets.

If you think the depleted carbs plan would be beneficial then I will give it a go. I have complete confidence in what you say. besides that I also eat 4 apples throughout the day. ok, bread is out. oatmeal ok? as far as veggies. I cut a big bowl of cucumber/peppers/tomatoes and eat with every meal.

Ordered PS and glycine right now.

I live in Israel. I have an appt with my dr so I can see if they have Arimidex.

~~~~~I'm not a Doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What you mean? and no more avatar pic :slightly_smiling:

TRT- there is some connection with addisons and bone issues. Its an adrenal gland disorder. Ive never looked into it. Lets just say that BB isnt the preferred sport for an addisonian. development for me was an issue. I wasnt tall when I was a teen. 5.2". I took GH for 1.3 years and grew to 6' because I had the genetic ability. but my limbs are quite small..dont know if thats a connection though. Maybe I do need to hit lighter weights/higher reps workouts here and there to not overload my bones. I will take your advice and use it for the next few workouts. is it ok to not have muscle soreness though after an intense workout?

If youd like you could read the first 2 paragraphs here and that will basically give the picture:

As far as getting off the gear..I dont know. Im very worried/scared. I will lose weight VERY fast and then depression will kick in, and that will not play out well.

thanks again for the assistance. its much appreciated.


Well whatever you do, I think you need to work with a doctor. Everything in that first paragraph is well beyond anything I have ever experienced or dealt with personally, or with friends/acquaintances in the lifting community. But good luck to you.

The holiday inn comment is from a stupid set of commercials we have over here in which average people stay at Holiday Inns (cheap hotel) and they suddenly are incredibly smart in some sort of specific manner. The reason is that they made such a good decision to stay at a holiday inn because they saved money that now they are smart enough to do anything. This isn't really too far off from Americans in general, actually. I think that staying at a Holiday Inn was the main argument Obama made for himself during his election campaign....

I don't generally work myself into muscle soreness anymore as I train only the lifts now, with not nearly as much emphasis on the actual muscle. This isn't ideal for hypertrophy, which is probably what you're looking for, but its ideal for what I'm currently training for. Either way, lighter weight/higher rep isn't a be all end all - the point is, try something different because you should not be experience bone pain. Lifting weights is only one thing in life and its not for everyone. And even if you chose to pursue it, you don't have to be the biggest guy. I understand the "depression" you speak of - muscle dysmorphia - basically thinking your small when you're really not. Stay on the testosterone as you are supposed to be on it. But knock off all that other stuff, especially since its doing nothing for you.


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Sorry if I caused confusion, I meant stay on his TRT dose.


I did only use sustanon as TRT for 7 months. then when I added the other shit, which wasnt in these doses (all added over time) my body morphed completely. I got tons of comments from friends and family. What the fuck are you eating is what they kept asking. thats why I dont want to stop. its only when Im using this things that I make any progress, otherwise the sus helps to a certain degree but not the kind of strength I get from the other stuff.

Btw, should I start with the depleted carb diet, or maybe wait for more blood results?

Thanks again..cheers


Yah but its not helping anymore meaning you need to do something different. Everyone takes time off from heavy cycles.

I'll let BBB answer about the diet.


This. Exactly this.

Training 1 to 2 times per week just doesnt cut it. In fact, it's a complete joke