T Nation

Need Advice

I know this is my 2nd thread on HCG, but I’ve been on HCG monotherapy for 3 weeks now. My doctor’s protocol was 1000 IU 3x per week (MWF). The first week I noticed no improvements, although testicular hypertrophy was evident. I noticed a bit of bloating and weight gain, so I have since decreased the dose to 500 IU 3x per week.

I am now noticing some improvements, however I have good days and bad days. A good day will consist of better energy levels, lifted mood, increased libido and desire for sex. Overall, feel pretty good. On my bad days, I feel fatigued, brain-fogged, depressed, have anxiety and feel tense, and have stomach cramps. I inject my HCG around early evenings, and I notice the following day is usually a good day. But the next day (when Iâ??m due for my next injection) is when I tend to have a bad day.

It almost seems as though I get the benefits of my injection for about 36 hours, but then Iâ??m left with a full day of feeling crappy again. In my case, would you recommend I inject smaller doses more frequently (i.e. ED vs 3x per week) or would this not make a difference? Could these symptoms also be due to high estrogen? I find it odd that some days are good and some days are bad.

Please add any bloodwork to this topic !

I don’t have bloodwork since I’ve been on HCG. Do you want my previous bloodwork before HCG?

[quote]kris90 wrote:
I don’t have bloodwork since I’ve been on HCG. Do you want my previous bloodwork before HCG?[/quote]

Could be of some use but current bloodworm is more important at this point to see where you’re at and if your oestrogen is in check.

[quote]eaboadar wrote:

[quote]kris90 wrote:
I don’t have bloodwork since I’ve been on HCG. Do you want my previous bloodwork before HCG?[/quote]

Could be of some use but current bloodworm is more important at this point to see where you’re at and if your oestrogen is in check.[/quote]

The problem is I don’t have another appointment with my Urologist until end of June. He wants me to get bloodwork then to check.

I supposed I could try to convince my family doc to order me bloodwork? She’s still not even aware I’m on HCG.

[quote]kris90 wrote:

[quote]eaboadar wrote:

[quote]kris90 wrote:
I don’t have bloodwork since I’ve been on HCG. Do you want my previous bloodwork before HCG?[/quote]

Could be of some use but current bloodworm is more important at this point to see where you’re at and if your oestrogen is in check.[/quote]

The problem is I don’t have another appointment with my Urologist until end of June. He wants me to get bloodwork then to check.

I supposed I could try to convince my family doc to order me bloodwork? She’s still not even aware I’m on HCG.[/quote]

YES, try and get it

So here is my bloodwork. This is on 250 IU of HCG 3x per week (Monday/Wednesday/Friday):

LH: <1 IU/L (ref: 1-9)
FSH: <1 IU/L (ref: 1-19)
Prolactin: 11 ug/L (ref: 3-13)
Estradiol: 109 pmol/L (ref: 40-160)
Total Testosterone: 15.9 nmol/L (ref: 6.1-27.1)
Free Testosterone: 335 pmol/L (ref: 110-660)
Bioavailable Testosterone: 7.9 nmol/L (ref: 2.8-15.5)
SHBG: 32 nmol/L (ref: 13-89)

I definitely felt better than when I was on 1000 IU 3x per week (estro was probably very high). But now, I feel like my E2 to T ratio sucks. Considering my testosterone levels aren’t even mid range, why would my E2 levels be so high? I have low bodyfat, and am super active eating a clean diet. My doctor says my numbers look great, and would only recommend possibly changing my dose to 250 IU EOD so I get 875 IU per week versus 750 IU per week.

Should I say fuck it, and just go on 100mg of Testosterone per week? I keep telling my doctor how great I feel when I’m on Testosterone injections, but he doesn’t say anything. He is only offering me HCG or Clomid.

Edit: Also, these labs were taken about 12-14 hours after an HCG injection.

Bloods look good…
Those numbers are really good on hcg only.
E2 looks fine as well

Estradiol
The conversion factor is shown below.

Estradiol: pg/mL x 3.676 = pmol/L (molecular weight = 272)

You are around 30pg/ml. 21.80 and 30.11 pg/mL ideal range.

I guess my estro is probably ok, as long as it does not go any higher. I like it to be around 90 though.

But my T levels are not even mid-range. Isn’t that a little low for a 24 year old? I mean, my libido is ok, but I never get random boners like I did whilst on T injections. Wouldn’t low dose T bring my levels to the higher end of the range without spiking E2 too much?

So I have an update here. I’ve gotten more bloodwork while on HCG on June 18, 2014. Here are the results:

LH: <1 IU/L (ref: 1-9)
FSH: <1 IU/L (ref: 1-19)
Prolactin: 11 ug/L (ref: 3-13)
Estradiol: 64 pmol/L (ref: 40-160)
Total Testosterone: 16.4 nmol/L (ref: 6.1-27.1)
Free Testosterone: 330 pmol/L (ref: 110-660)
Bioavailable Testosterone: 7.7 nmol/L (ref: 2.8-15.5)
SHBG: 35 nmol/L (ref: 13-89)

So obviously an improvement in E2 levels, and I felt great at this time. My Urologist and I agreed to make the switch to Clomid. So I began Clomid that same day while tapering off the HCG (Clomid has been 25mg/ED). It’s been 8 weeks since I’ve been on Clomid now, and I haven’t felt great. Here are my results:

LH: 2 IU/L (ref: 1-9)
FSH: 2 IU/L (ref: 1-19)
Estradiol: 52 pmol/L (ref: 40-160)
Total Testosterone: 14.5 nmol/L (ref: 6.1-27.1)
Free Testosterone: 308 pmol/L (ref: 110-660)
Bioavailable Testosterone: 7.2 nmol/L (ref: 2.8-15.5)
SHBG: 31 nmol/L (ref: 13-89)

So as you can see, my E2 and T levels dropped. I definitely don’t have much of a libido, my mood is down, I lost about 10 lbs within the 2 months on Clomid and gained a bit of fat. My Urologist says that I have responded to the Clomid just fine. He says I now have an LH signal, and I can start tapering off Clomid, and get bloodwork to see where I’m at.

I am concerned that my levels are only going to drop lower. I really need some help. Shouldn’t my LH and FSH be a lot higher on Clomid, especially since I’ve been on for 8 weeks? Why am I not responding strongly? Can something be suppressing my pituitary? According to an MRI, my pituitary looked fine (no tumors). I am at a loss. Could it be Cortisol?

Is that the estradiol sensitive assay? The sensitive assay, which is more accurate for males, tends to run lower, so low E could be a cause?

And most ppl get don’t feel good and have no libido on clomid. Although I agree, I should think your LH/FSH would be higher. I wonder if you’re secondary hypogonadal. but then again your TT and FT didn’t drop all that much when you switched from HCG to clomid

Please read the advice for new guys sticky and see if there is something useful for you.

If too much hCG increased E2 too much, at some point higher LH can do the same thing.

Clomid makes a fair number of guys feel crappy and nolvadex can work just as well without the same side effects.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Please read the advice for new guys sticky and see if there is something useful for you.

If too much hCG increased E2 too much, at some point higher LH can do the same thing.

Clomid makes a fair number of guys feel crappy and nolvadex can work just as well without the same side effects.

[/quote]

Hi KSman. I did read the stickies before. HCG seemed to have been ok once I found my dosage which was 250 IU/EOD. As you can see, E2 actually leveled out at 64 pmol/L which equates to around 17 pg/mL.

I understand that Clomid can make some feel crappy due to it acting like an estrogen in the body, however, would you not expect a better response from Clomid? My LH and FSH only moved up to 2. Also, Testosterone levels dropped to 14.5 nmol/L which only equates to around 418 ng/dL. Don’t most use a range of 300 to 1000? I’m near the bottom end.

I also noticed that while being off HCG and on Clomid (8 weeks total) I lost about 10 lbs, but gained 0.5 inches on my belly. I’ve also had intense sugar cravings. Something doesn’t feel right. Won’t my levels drop even further after tapering off Clomid? Shouldn’t I just go back on HCG since I felt good?

BUMP

Does anyone think it’s worth continuing the Clomid? Will my levels eventually come up with time, or is it likely this will be the best my body can do on Clomid?

Clomid and Nolvadex interfere with the hypothalamus detecting E2 in your blood stream. The results are the same and the doses are similar. Clomid was the first SERM, so a lot of research was done to see what the effects were and to understand the mechanisms etc. When nolvadex came along, there was no real need to repeat all of the research or explore the clinical uses. So there is an information bias that keeps making people aware of clomid and not nolvadex. I tried both, simply to experience what I write about. I am one who feels horrible on clomid so I know the downside and I try to help people avoid that. Meanwhile the drum beat is always clomid, clomid, clomid and doctors do not know or do not care about the negative effects that some have with clomid.

“My LH and FSH only moved up to 2” after what dose and how long. During SERM or after taper?

[quote]KSman wrote:
“My LH and FSH only moved up to 2” after what dose and how long. During SERM or after taper?

[/quote]

I was while on 25mg/ED after 8 weeks (no taper). This was after about 3 months of HCG monotherapy @ 250 IU/EOD.

BUMP

I said as soon as I saw you changed to clomid you messed up, that stuff made me feel worse than I already felt and that’s hard to believe possible. I didn’t take it very long at all( about 3 weeks total) and my eyesight is still blurry, can’t say for sure that’s what caused it but that’s when it started. My big question is if you felt good on hcg why did you change, if I had something make me feel good I would guard that shit like gold.

I, also was wondering why you moved away from HCG if it was working for you. Numbers didn’t look bad and most importantly you felt good. Did you switch for fertility reasons? If not, I would go back to HCG and perhaps add in small T injections if you think you could do better with little higher T levels.