Good discussion going on in here. Have been wanting to jump in, but free time to do so has been scarce lately.
One thing that people often fail to understand is that there is a difference between “Grappling” and “Ground Fighting.”
Grappling is what occurs in sporting contexts where there are only control, positional/transitional, and possibly submission skills allowed. Wrestling (obviously different rules between Greco, Freestyle, Folkstyle, and CACC), Judo, Submission Grappling, IBJJF, Shuai Jiao/Shiao, etc… are all examples of purely “Grappling” arts.
Ground Fighting actually has two iterations (Sport Ground Fighting and Reality Ground Fighting) and includes all of the components of position, control, transitions, and submissions, but it also exists in the presence of at least striking (Sport iteration) and at most all 6 other “arsenals” (striking, biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, and weapons) and incorporates realistic components like environmental concerns, tactical considerations (such as multiples, having to protect others, etc…), legal and moral considerations, etc…
As Sento stated, a really good conversation. Please continue. I came across this the other day and it applies here:
" And this began a lifelong search of training that would help me reach an endpoint rather than focusing on a certain “art” or regimented method of training. My endpoint goal was surviving and prevailing in a real life fight. So for the purpose of this book, when I use the term “combatives”, I am referring to all skill sets that will help you win a fight. Combatives consist of defensive skills (defending against an attack), striking skills (to counter attack), grappling skills (both standing and on the ground), and “in fight weapon access” skills. This is the often-overlooked area that even most hard-core fighters do not train, and that is the inclusion of training weapons during combatives training (such as red guns and training knives)"
Interesting article. He makes a lot of good points. I especially like his point about the necessity of fitness and Unarmed skills, even for those who carry. I also like the point about grip strength, often neglected attribute.
I do disagree strongly with a few things he says though.
Firstly, the core is primarily an endurance and stabilizing structure first and foremost. Yes, it’s true that once you develop it tona high degree that shorter duration/high force skills can be great, but most people fail to ever reach that point. The core should be build with long duration holds and/or high repetitions first, and only progress to shorter duration/higher “intensity” (%1RM) once a solid foundation has been built.
To be perfectly frank, while many grapplers and Martial Artists do have strong cores compared to many people, their cores are generally pathetically weak compared to truly elite core strength athletes like Gymnasts, circus performers, breakdancers, or even some XMA/Wushu artists. A fairly high profile example is GSP, generally considered one of the most athletic, strong, and talented grapplers in UFC history, but if you watch any videos of his gymnastics training he is incredibly weak core strength wise compared to the gymnasts that he is training with (and none of them are World Class).
Second, while I like Pavel’s stuff a lot, the notion that strength should take first priority is a mistaken one. The body functions best when it is in balance; developing a high degree of strength without an equal degree of flexibility/mobility you become fragile, like a bone that is cooked in an oven and loses its elasticity. This is a path to likely injury to your connective tissues.
I agree with you on this and the core strength. Like most training articles, both good and bad rear their heads. You said it best " balance" in all aspects. Thanks for the reply.
10 years both martial arts and wrestling (done both freestyle and grecko). No problems standing my ground on my feet, but if I get a chance I’m tossing someone. Unless you are highly experienced in ground fighting you are DONE when you smack the ground. (Not a takedown but actually thrown.)
Even with multiple people, it’s basically a KO unless you are fighting someone as experienced as you. Its unexpected, most people put themselves in positions to be naturally, and You will be stunned if not incapacitated. Besides a good throw should put you close enough to scramble into a full mount if it’s done properly.
Not as effective in the military. Can’t use a gun while rolling around on the ground. But it will not only be effective but look better in civilian life than knocking someone’s teeth out, atleast IMO.