T Nation

Natural vs Bodybuilding with Steroids

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

why are you guys making franco columbo out to be something big. guys, he was a small dude. sure, he was cut and strong, but size wise, he was a small guy. get real. [/quote]

It’s not really about guys that weigh the same, or even have the same - or bigger - measurements. It’s a QUALITY of physique. Yes, Franco was short and small, but he looked fucking huge and dense because he had a championship physique. No high school kid has that, end of story. [/quote]

yes, i agree with that. if we are talking qaulity of muscle and definition. then i definately agree.[/quote]

Exactly, a guy with that amount of muscle relative to his height is awesome

Quality of muscle is very similar to the amount of true size one possesses.

If you take a 6’3’’ 285 lb high school heavyweight wrestler at lets say his lean body mass is around 215-220 which is reasonable. Franco Columbo’s lean body mass was around 190 at a heigh of 5’5’’. For the wrestler to be the same lean body mass in proportion to hi height, he would have to be around 260-270 in the same condition that Franco was, which is obviously ludicrous.

You are confusing just pure size with lean body mass. Of course a 6’3’’ 285 lb high school wrestler is “bigger” than a 5’5’’ 190 Franco, but he in no way has more muscle in proportion to his height not is his physique more impressive. [/quote]

Exactly, a guy with that amount of muscle relative to his height is awesome and very hard to achieve

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

why are you guys making franco columbo out to be something big. guys, he was a small dude. sure, he was cut and strong, but size wise, he was a small guy. get real. [/quote]

It’s not really about guys that weigh the same, or even have the same - or bigger - measurements. It’s a QUALITY of physique. Yes, Franco was short and small, but he looked fucking huge and dense because he had a championship physique. No high school kid has that, end of story. [/quote]

yes, i agree with that. if we are talking qaulity of muscle and definition. then i definately agree.[/quote]

Quality of muscle is very similar to the amount of true size one possesses.

If you take a 6’3’’ 285 lb high school heavyweight wrestler at lets say his lean body mass is around 215-220 which is reasonable. Franco Columbo’s lean body mass was around 190 at a heigh of 5’5’’. For the wrestler to be the same lean body mass in proportion to hi height, he would have to be around 260-270 in the same condition that Franco was, which is obviously ludicrous.

You are confusing just pure size with lean body mass. Of course a 6’3’’ 285 lb high school wrestler is “bigger” than a 5’5’’ 190 Franco, but he in no way has more muscle in proportion to his height not is his physique more impressive. [/quote]

see, when everyday average people see you, if your a big 285lb guy, now im talking a guy thats not fat, just not ripped. they don’t say to themselves “gee, his bodyfat is this, and his lean bodymass is really this, so hes really not that big” they don’t reason this out. they just see, "damm that guys huge.

if 2 guys are out at a club, and one guy is ripped at 4% bodyfat, while another guy is wayyy bigger at say 15% bodyfat, in clothes, do you really think anyone can tell who has a lower bodyfat %. 99% of our lives are spend in clothes, so thats where you want to look impressive.

^ I wouldn’t disagree with that, but you have to recognize that you are in a bodybuilding forum and no one cares if someone looks more impressive in a shirt ultimately.

When physiques are compared in a bodybuilding comp, the competitors are shirtless…

lets use myself as an example, im a rather short guy(wish i was taller, but nothing i can do).
im 5’7 @ 280-285lbs. maybe cause how i grew up influenced me as an adult. i was a very thin kid. i graduated high school at 130lbs. mainly cause of my interest in martial arts, so I mostly wanted to be fast.

but, hearing comment after comment of how puny i was caused me to perhaps let it get to me. if i see a really ripped guy, but small, i see small. regardless of what his real muscle weight is compared to his bodyfat %. all that means little to me only that hes small.

when I think of small and ripped in the way you are saying, I think ripped cross country guy, not Franco Columbo at 190 lb and 5’5’’.

[quote]TommyGunz32 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]LazyElemental wrote:
To look like Franco or Coleman you’ll need steroids, as for what you can do naturally take a look in Stu’s contest prep thread.

I 100% disagree. Ok, if you want to look like Ronnie Coleman, then yes, you will most likely need steroids. but comeon, Franco Columbo. that guy was what 190lbs. he was a small guy. both in height and stature. he was pretty big for his day. but nowadays, ive seen high school guys bigger than him. maybe not as strong, but the question was could he look like him. and ive seen many many guys not on steroids that are 40lbs bigger than him. yes, he was very lean, but with proper nutrition and todays supplements, its not all that hard to do. [/quote]

I 100% disagree with your post. Most likely need steroids to look like coleman? Not all that hard to look like franco? Are we talking about the same people?

I agree there are kids bigger than him or maybe have bigger arms but they sure as hell don’t look like him.

nattys can build very impressive physiques, there are many examples on this site. But like I said in my previous post I believe most have to sacrifice leanness for size and vice versa.

I just thought you were off base using two pro bbers juiced to the gills as examples of attainable feats.
[/quote]

No one is arguing with you that what you think is more impressive, less impressive.

As you can see in your above post you said it was not difficult for a high school kid to look like franco and you thought he was small. Both are pretty ludicrous statements.

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
bodybuilding yes, but this isn’t a bodybuilding competition. personally i find guys onstage posing in little briefs incredibly gay. but building ones body to be big and muscular and to be physically superior to everyone else is my idea of bodybuilding, not to just pose on stage for a meager paycheck and some stupid plastic trophy.[/quote]

Not that I want to get on a bodybuilding stage… but the way you demean it is moronic. Like those guys are doing it just for a ‘meager paycheck or trophy’. That’s like saying the best olympians dedicate their life for a stupid little trophy.

Also, Franco might not have been huge in the way you are thinking, but the fact is that if he had the bodyfat of around 15-20% with his muscle mass he would have been massive for a 5’5 guy. I just find it ridiculous you are comparing him to just some ‘big’ high school football player or something.

Plus, the topic of this thread implies that we are talking about competition, because it is bodybuilding. You can’t go around calling yourself a bodybuilder if you don’t compete. You can be a ridiculously massive gym rat, but you aren’t a bodybuilder.

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
http://www.danawhiteout.com/2010/09/brock-lesnar-when-he-was-young/

brock through the ages, not an amazing large high schooler.[/quote]

Holy shit at how skinny he was at the age of 16.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]K-Man32 wrote:
Look at Synergy, The mighty Stu, Professor X, KingBeef, MODOK, Holymac, and BugAD for big natty’s to ask advice/look up to/whatever. There are others too, those were off the top of my head.

That being said, you can learn a lot from discussions in the steroids forum too. People are too judgmental, so they tend to keep on that board when it comes to training/diet and stay off of this one.[/quote]

Synergy is definitely an awesome example of a natty around these boards. Has X ever actually claimed to be natural? I thought he usually took a “not something i would discuss on the internet” stance. [/quote]
He claims the following

"I don’t use steroids. I also have nothing against the medically supervised use of them. Believe what you will. "

link http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/professor_x_steroids

[quote]D Public wrote:
natural bodybuilding is depressing…

by the time you are 35 or so, you will reach your peak…and you could’ve acheived/surpassed that in 2-3 yrs using steroids…

[/quote]

if a lifter’s primary reason for training/bodybuiding is cosmetic alone, they never last more than a couple of years anyway…

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
Contest condition for a natty of average height (5’10’’ ish) around 195-200 is VERY good. Most don’t realize that this means you’re walking around at 220 with a bodyfat that most would call very lean. [/quote]

I know a 5’ 10" lifetime natural lifter we can use as an example. This guy is not a bodybuilder, but dabbles a bit with body-comp. work for the challenge. He is in his late forties. He weighs 215-200 in the off-season and cleans up pretty nice at 195. The lighting is poor and he cetaintly doesn’t know shit about posing, but you guys will get the idea.

This video is from the spring of 2009

[/quote]

^ Is that not you??[/quote]

Yes it is.
I am a big believer in not setting limits, but advocate realistic goal setting just the same. Most inexperianced lifters (all ages & genders), tend to under estimate the seriousness of the effort or the time frame involved in accomplishing their objective, regardless if it is to gain mass or lose fat. At 48 my best training days are in the rear-view mirror, and what a great ride it has been. I try to be an example; via my work ethic and physical appearance that helps other lifters realize it is not about what another lifters looks like, or what weight they lift, but a journey of self-discovery that produces results.

This roguevampire has become one of the top idiots of 2011 on this board for sure, and I don’t think he’s trying to troll, thats the sad part.

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
Contest condition for a natty of average height (5’10’’ ish) around 195-200 is VERY good. Most don’t realize that this means you’re walking around at 220 with a bodyfat that most would call very lean. [/quote]

I know a 5’ 10" lifetime natural lifter we can use as an example. This guy is not a bodybuilder, but dabbles a bit with body-comp. work for the challenge. He is in his late forties. He weighs 215-200 in the off-season and cleans up pretty nice at 195. The lighting is poor and he cetaintly doesn’t know shit about posing, but you guys will get the idea.

This video is from the spring of 2009

[/quote]

^ Is that not you??[/quote]

Yes it is.
I am a big believer in not setting limits, but advocate realistic goal setting just the same. Most inexperianced lifters (all ages & genders), tend to under estimate the seriousness of the effort or the time frame involved in accomplishing their objective, regardless if it is to gain mass or lose fat. At 48 my best training days are in the rear-view mirror, and what a great ride it has been. I try to be an example; via my work ethic and physical appearance that helps other lifters realize it is not about what another lifters looks like, or what weight they lift, but a journey of self-discovery that produces results.

[/quote]

If you believe that your best training days are behind you, then they will be. I firmly beleive that age is one big placebo effect. people age, cause they beleive in their minds, thats just how it is and theirs nothing they can do about it. your mind is a powerful weopon. your body will react to whatever your mind tells it. so if you beleive that to be true, it will be. simple.

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
This roguevampire has become one of the top idiots of 2011 on this board for sure, and I don’t think he’s trying to troll, thats the sad part.

[/quote]

idiots of 2011? many people who speak their minds, that goes against what others think are often thought of as stupid or idiots. but im far from an idiot my little friend. far from it. im not some little 140lb punk kid here.

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

if a lifter’s primary reason for training/bodybuiding is cosmetic alone, they never last more than a couple of years anyway… [/quote]
the primary and ultimate goal in body building is to achieve a certain look, so your statement is a bit weird

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
99% of our lives are spend in clothes, so thats where you want to look impressive. [/quote]

Oh geez, thanks for telling me what my goals should be professor.

Hey look I found a 7 year old bigger than Columbo omg!

Seriously dude, this is a bodybuilding forum, OBVIOUSLY when you talk about someone being bigger than a professional BODYBUILDER, they will be compared by BODYBUILDER criteria. Doesn’t take a fucking genius to figure that out. Now if you wanna go to the powerlifting forum (which I’m assuming you compete in, or plan to compete in) and talk about sheer size and enormously crazy totals and such, or combat sports forum and talk about wrestling, feel free. That’s why we have them.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
99% of our lives are spend in clothes, so thats where you want to look impressive. [/quote]

Oh geez, thanks for telling me what my goals should be professor.

Hey look I found a 7 year old bigger than Columbo omg!

Seriously dude, this is a bodybuilding forum, OBVIOUSLY when you talk about someone being bigger than a professional BODYBUILDER, they will be compared by BODYBUILDER criteria. Doesn’t take a fucking genius to figure that out. Now if you wanna go to the powerlifting forum (which I’m assuming you compete in, or plan to compete in) and talk about sheer size and enormously crazy totals and such, or combat sports forum and talk about wrestling, feel free. That’s why we have them. [/quote]

I don’t consider myself a powerlifter. i consider myself a bodybuilder. i just don’t starve myself in order to have that ripped look. my goal is to be as freaky huge as possible while maintaining a solid phyique. solid, not ripped or shredded. bodybuilding isn’t about starving yourself. that is the competitive aspect of it. Im curious why people always assume im a powerlifter. lol.

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
Contest condition for a natty of average height (5’10’’ ish) around 195-200 is VERY good. Most don’t realize that this means you’re walking around at 220 with a bodyfat that most would call very lean. [/quote]

I know a 5’ 10" lifetime natural lifter we can use as an example. This guy is not a bodybuilder, but dabbles a bit with body-comp. work for the challenge. He is in his late forties. He weighs 215-200 in the off-season and cleans up pretty nice at 195. The lighting is poor and he cetaintly doesn’t know shit about posing, but you guys will get the idea.

This video is from the spring of 2009

[/quote]

^ Is that not you??[/quote]

Yes it is.
I am a big believer in not setting limits, but advocate realistic goal setting just the same. Most inexperianced lifters (all ages & genders), tend to under estimate the seriousness of the effort or the time frame involved in accomplishing their objective, regardless if it is to gain mass or lose fat. At 48 my best training days are in the rear-view mirror, and what a great ride it has been. I try to be an example; via my work ethic and physical appearance that helps other lifters realize it is not about what another lifters looks like, or what weight they lift, but a journey of self-discovery that produces results.

[/quote]

Ha, right proud of myself for guessing it was you! Even though I just realised you have a video of yourself on your profile lol.

Very inspirational stuff. It gives me encouragement looking at one’s like yourself, knowing that I’ve still got plenty years of progress/good maintenance left in me. I will still be lifting when I’m elderly, health permitting (i.e. no paralyses haha). You’re 100% right, it’s not just about appearance, it’s much deeper than that.

Heh Im natural, I like it. Bit slower but oh well bodybuilding is a life-long marathon anyways

Can’t believe Franco is getting dissed here. Symmetry, muscle separation, classic v shape, dense muscle and one of the strongest men to boot. He deadlift more than most most “big” powerlifters for fuck’s sake. High skool kids? on this planet ?? I wanna kno their stack lol