T Nation

Natural Selection - Genetics

Anyone know of any articles based on the concept that, woman are attracted to men with wide shoulders, and smaller hips. wide shoulders because more T. and small hips translating to immunity. Men are attracted to large breasts, and a good hip to waiste ratio. breasts meaning higher E, and hip to waiste meaining child birth. there is more to it then that, but you get the jist.

i have only herd of these statements, so im looking for some written scientific evidence.

Historically a lot of cultures found beauty in wider waist women.

[quote]Dylanj wrote:
Anyone know of any articles based on the concept that, woman are attracted to men with wide shoulders, and smaller hips. wide shoulders because more T. and small hips translating to immunity. Men are attracted to large breasts, and a good hip to waiste ratio. breasts meaning higher E, and hip to waiste meaining child birth. there is more to it then that, but you get the jist.

i have only herd of these statements, so im looking for some written scientific evidence.[/quote]

I don’t think you will find any written scientific evidence on this since physical attraction varies among cultures. There is no shortage of studies that have tried to pinpoint what features are universally attractive. Just google it or go find a Sociology/Anthropology textbook.

DB

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7616354.stm

Beauty is universal.

Human beings are evolved to be equipped with a beauty detector. Since we can’t go around and draw people’s blood and test their DNA, we’ve evolved by natural selection an eye to detect signs of fertility.

Beauty traits are perceptual signals of how well equipped the other person’s body is to serve and share the genetic stake of our child.

If you go to any tribes, countries, or cities in the world and ask all kinds of people to come up with an ideal beauty image, chances are they’d all come up with the same characteristics.

Beauty features such as symmetry, cleanliness, long hair, straight, white teeth, round, big, clear eyes, and full lips are universal because they are signs indicating that a person has developed normality, is healthy, free of infection and deformity, carries good genes, has a strong immune system, very fertile, and capable of making the fittest offspring.

Men are attracted to women who have:

Full lips (a sign that you have a lot of estrogen - fertile),

Skinny jaw bones (lack of testosterone - fertile),

Long, luxurious hair (history of good health. Lack of nutrition and infection weakens the hair and damages the shaft),

Straight teeth and aligned jaws (a good-looking face usually has optimal alignment for chewing),

Large breasts (again, signs of fertility and good quantity of fresh breast milk),

Wide hips (signs of good, healthy fats, good calorie reserved for pregnancy),

and optimal waist-to-hip ratio (shows good youth and signs of never being pregnant).

On the other hand, women are attracted to men who have high doses of testosterone in their blood, and low levels of estrogen.

High cheek bones, lean muscle mass, strong chins and foreheads, broad shoulders, large testicles, angular jaws are all signs of a healthy fertile male with normal hormone and ideal testosterone levels.

Heterosexual men prefer women who have a lot of estrogens and very little testosterone in their blood because women with large doses of testosterone are less fertile. This is why most men find masculine-looking girls undesirable.

Now, teenagers and girls in early 20s are the hottest and most attractive of girs becasue younger girls have all the reproduction virtues: Having the right hormones, less likely to be infectious, young, and not having been pregnant.

Young girls who’s never had a child has a longer reproduction career ahead of them, and their husbands don’t need to worry about the possibility of raising another man’s offspring or having other children tagging along.

Also, most girls are attracted to guys who are older than them, and guys tend to go for younger girls. It�??s totally acceptable for older men to be attracted to really young girls. But you almost never see the reverse. Meanwhile, it�??s pretty normal for a teenage girl to fantasize about somone who is a lot older than them, even men who are old enough to be their father

This is because men find girls who have just began their menstruation cycles attractive, and women who have already reached menopause, unattractive, since having sex with a biologically useless woman is a waste of time in a reproduction sense. But a man can stay attractive even when he gets older because his fertility doesn’t decline with age, since his testicles are still making sperms even when they are in their 50s and 60s.

[quote]DickBag wrote:
what about the philipeens?

i doubt they would have this whole “wide shoulders narrow waiste” theory.

different people want defferent things.

some women think small waistes are girly.

[/quote]

there are execeptions of course, and culture effects people’s view on beauty, but only to an extend. But i still think beauty is pretty much universal in general. Just look at the ideal male physiques of Greek statues and the bodies of models in paintings throug out history.

OP, I read a pretty darn fascinating book several months back called “Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters.” The title sounds kinda gay, but it is a bunch of really interesting hypotheses and conclusions about why society is the way it is, written by 2 evolutionary psychologists.

There is a good bit in there about the topic you are inquiring about. I don’t necessarily agree with everything the book has to say, but it’s definitely an interesting and worthwhile read. There aren’t many books I read straight through in one night, and that was one of 'em. Check it out. :smiley:

[quote]digitalairair wrote:

Heterosexual men prefer women who have a lot of estrogens and very little testosterone in their blood because women with large doses of testosterone are less fertile. This is why most men find masculine-looking girls undesirable.

[/quote]

Men may seek high estrogen women for procreation, but they prefer high testosterone women for fun.

Well you also have to determine what is a stronger factor in the individual: Nature or Nurture?

pleasure associations and recognitions will have a big influence on the individuals preference which is more nurture than nature

But in regards to your question, what makes you ask? Are you seeking to understand why, or are you looking for a blueprint for how to build your body?

It is an interesting question, but seeing as how we aren’t insulated communities any longer with very homogeneous looks, I think the better question is; nature or nurture?

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

But in regards to your question, what makes you ask? Are you seeking to understand why, or are you looking for a blueprint for how to build your body?

[/quote]

that is exactly what i am doing. blueprint is a perfect way to put it. I figure the most primal instincts may be the best ones to follow.

[quote]Wayland wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7616354.stm [/quote]

very interesting, thank you.

[quote]digitalairair wrote:
DickBag wrote:
what about the philipeens?

i doubt they would have this whole “wide shoulders narrow waiste” theory.

different people want defferent things.

some women think small waistes are girly.

there are execeptions of course, and culture effects people’s view on beauty, but only to an extend. But i still think beauty is pretty much universal in general. Just look at the ideal male physiques of Greek statues and the bodies of models in paintings throug out history. [/quote]

digitalairair, very good stuff to read. where did you find this information?

anj, hopefully my school library can order it, thanks for the tip.

Digitalair is pretty much spot on. Virtually every single physical attribute we find attractive or unattractive has to do with what it says about an individual’s internal environment, disease state, hormonal status, genetics, etc.

Internal problems manifest themselves in a variety of outside ways including bone structure, skin quality, facial features, and on and on. Dr. Weston A. Price, a dentist from Cleveland, found that poor dental health correlated with poor general health, usually brought about due to hyperinsulemia (i.e., diabetes or a pre-diabetic state), poor mineral status, or both. This may be one reason why “bad teeth” are almost universally regarded as an unattractive feature (and, incidentally, why orthodontists are so prevalent in our society).

Of course, one also must consider the social manifestations of our internal environment. The typical high-testosterone male will tend to be confident, socially accessible, etc. Women are no doubt just as interested in that manifestation as they are in the jawline.

One final word: I recall a study (read about it in Playboy) which showed that when ovulating, women prefer the high-testosterone male, but actually prefer men with relatively more feminine features when not ovulating. I think the idea is that women want to beget the offspring of the high-testosterone man, but have a stable, perhaps more monogomous man there to help raise said offspring. In conventional terms, the study suggests that, ideally, women want to get banged by the “bad boy” (who will then go to prison or be off siring children elsewhere) and then raise that child with the scientist/lawyer/doctor/accountant. Can you say “cuckold”?

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:

Men may seek high estrogen women for procreation, but they prefer high[er] testosterone women for fun.

[/quote]

Fixed. No man wants a woman with a 'stache, no matter how well she shoots whiskey and pool.

so chicks dig my shit cause i have broad shoulders and a dominant hairline

[quote]digitalairair wrote:
Heterosexual men prefer women who have a lot of estrogens and very little testosterone in their blood because women with large doses of testosterone are less fertile. This is why most men find masculine-looking girls undesirable.[/quote]

Fail. Sort of.

Comparatively speaking, men seek out partners with much lower Test but only in comparison to themselves, but women with high test (for a woman) will be regarded as pretty damn hot.

Of course, the moment they start to look masculine, then most guys lose interest.

Beauty is not ‘universal.’

We ascribe beauty to things that we can derive pleasure from.

Even if you meant to say a beautiful man/woman will meet the same standard of beauty (as your standard) in a different culture, you are still wrong.

This does not mean that beauty is ‘subjective’ - a common fallacy - but that it is a quality of an object and not a subjective state of mind.

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Beauty is not ‘universal.’

We ascribe beauty to things that we can derive pleasure from.

Even if you meant to say a beautiful man/woman will meet the same standard of beauty (as your standard) in a different culture, you are still wrong.

This does not mean that beauty is ‘subjective’ - a common fallacy - but that it is a quality of an object and not a subjective state of mind.
[/quote]

That is very true, but,I think that America among other countries value what has already been stated about the effects of testosterone and estrogen. Also this seems parallel to bodybuilding.

I dont plan on charming an Angolian woman anytime soon, so i think the typical westernized veiws of beauty suit me just fine.

Check out some of the more renewed studies on The Divine Proportion…also known as the Golden Ratio. I think there was even a thing on the Discovery channel a coulpe months ago about it that delved into the whole issue on genes, selection of mates, attraction/beauty, etc.