T Nation

Natural or Not?

Someone please settle this argument for me: I am of the opinion that if you take anything besides the basics like creatine and glutamine, you shouldn’t call yourself a “natural” builder. My friend is of the opinion that unless it is illegal, it is all “natural”. He’s now counting the days until N-17E and T-17E are available. I am sick of him pretending he’s taken the high moral ground over me since he’s a so-called “natural” (which I also see as: “smaller”!). But gimme a break: If N-17E converts to 400mg of nandrolone in the body, there is no way a user of that product is any longer a “natural” lifter, is there?! Then he’s no more natural than me popping d-bols, right?

Tell your friend to move to Turkey. He can inject a gram a day and still be “natural” since juice is over-the-counter.

I think the whole idea of natural or not has been discussed at length previously on the forum. I believe that the only time the word “natural” even applies is in competitions and each organization has a different definition. The use of any supplements and or anabolics isn’t natural really, we as a bodybuilding/powerlifting/strength training community are a different breed all together. There is nothing natural in what we do - otherwise everyone would look great and be able to move large amounts of weight NATURALLY!

I agree. Hormones are hormones no matter if legal or not. Insulin is legal and many people can get rx for gh and testosterone. That doesn’t make them natural. I am not going to try to convince anybody they are natural because the stick within the bounds of the law. Plus, AAS inhanced is better anyway.

I agree with what Matt S. has to say on the issue. By weight-training we are trying to improve on our natural capabilities. So in effect bodybuilding in itself is not natural, let alone half of the stuff we put into out bodies. But keep in mind that just because it’s not natural does not make it bad or harmful to us. Just use common sense in the decisions that you make in relation to your goals.

What is this N-17E and T-17E anyway? Can you really convert it into 400mg of Nandrolone or Test? Prohormones come nowhere near these amounts of conversion.

Mark, it’s pretty useful to talk about
whether something is legal or not, or whether
it is on a banned list or not, or whether it will make you fail a drug test or not, or whether it is naturally occurring or not, etc. These things
are very clear in meaning.

“Natural” has so many conflicting meanings
to so many people that arguing whether something is “natural” or not, when it comes
to supplementation, just isn’t the way to
go. Let’s figure out exactly what we mean
and then talk about that.

A lot of people are against use of illegal
drugs, but feel it’s OK to use things that
are legal. N-17E and T-17E are legal.

Many people are opposed to athletes using
drugs that are on a banned list for their
organization. N-17E and T-17E are not on
the banned list, but convert to substances
that are on the banned list and can yield
drug tests for banned substances after this
conversion. So here, N-17E and T-17E are
able to make one fail a drug test for banned
substances, though they themselves are not
specifically banned. We don’t recommend their
use in organizations that have bans against
other prohormones, even if they haven’t named
these new ones yet.

Testosterone and nandrolone are naturally occurring: they occur in nature. Yes, you can inject nandrolone right into your system, and you’ve putting in something natural! Uh, that’s not how you use the word natural I think, but you see my point… natural means different things to different people, so it just adds a lot more heat than light to argue about “natural.” Let’s talk about legal, banned,
naturally-occuring, etc.

Here, these products are legal, not appropriate for use in sports that ban prohormone or steroid use, are completely converted to natural substances in the body, but like
many vitamins on the market (for example, Vitamin E succinate) are derivatives giving
better absorption and utilization in the body.

Travis, these are a new class of prohormones
that use a different enzyme than the enzymes used by the prohormones now on the market. We don’t have the numbers yet of what can be achieved, but those figures are our goals. And if somehow it turns out we hit an enzyme limitation before reaching them – it’s possible – then we’ll punt! One way or the
other we will get to our goal. We’re pretty determined.

Part of me wishes prohormones never existed. I’ve never used an illegal anabolic steroid or growth enhancing drug. However, I’ve tried practically every supplement to come out in the past 8 years to compliment my hard work in the gym. I’m also a “natural” bodybuilder. The problem now is that there is such a blurred line between “natural” and “enhanced”. Maybe we should classify bodybuilders into 2 catagories, “all-legal” and “illegal”. For years all of us spent money on bullshit products that were touted to raise testosterone levels and growth hormone or “felt like deca”. Now that we have real supplements that actually work we are all classified as being on the “shit”. Some natural bodybuilding organizations are even banning tribulus, melatonin, and certain levels of caffeine! Give me a fucking break!! I will never use illegal AAS for many reasons, including being a role model to my nephews and many younger lifers I mentor. I WILL continue to use any LEGAL anabolic substance that I can get by walking into a health food store. Just call me an “all-legal” bodybuilder.

Sig, are you saying that if you could buy AAS at GNC :wink: then you’d quite happily inject a gram or two of test (or your drug of choice) in order to compliment your hard work in the gym?

I agree with Sig completely! Simon, if AAS were available legally, I would have no problem using them to supplement my hard work! - Matt Slaymaker

Mat, I’m not flaming anyone I just thought that Sig was saying that the use of AAS and being a role model to his nephews and many younger lifers he mentors are mutually exclusive. That is to say do you think that you would still be a good role model if you took AAS (if they were legal)? So is the issue purely the current illegality of AAS or is there a moral issue there as well?

I don’t feel there is a moral issue for the use (NOT ABUSE) of legal substances. I think the whole legality issue is what Sig (correct me if I am wrong Sig!) and I are talking about as far as role models. I, too have several young people that look up to me and it would be a poor example to be using illegal drugs or substances banned by a competitive organization (NCAA. NFL, USOC, whatever one would compete in)!

Ok then, that is pretty much my pov as well as I don’t think that I’d be a good role model if I broke the law in that way. However, what would you’re view be if AAS were legal to buy yet still banned from competition, such as is the case with excessive levels of caffeine in some sports. Would you then still be a good role model if you knew that many kids would wanna use to enhance their sporting performance?

If I could walk into a GNC and buy AAS LEGALLY, damn right I’d use them. Being put in jail to build more muscle just isn’t worth it to me. I would dissapoint too many people in my life and that would devastate me. I’ve been fortunate enough to be put in a position where many people look up to me and with that comes a HUGE responsibility. As far as staying within the guidelines of certain organizations, if it’s a banned substance and you want to compete, obey those limitations. Personally, I no longer compete in organizations that prohibit the use of prohormones because I choose to use prohormones.

I feel that as long as “I” was not participating in the sporting organization that banned the substance, I am still a positive role model. i.e. I am not breaking any rules. As to whether the youth would want to “use what Matt uses”, I guess i would have to explain how my use doesn’t break any organization’s rules and theirs would… or something to that effect! - Matt Slaymaker

Thanks Bill for the info on N-17E and T-17E I anxiously await to here more on your research.

I consider being natural is when you don’t use drugs to enhance your performance, that’s including substances like ephedrine and caffiene.

So Michael, then you must not drink pop or coffee or eat chocolate because they all contain caffeine, or take any cold medications that contain forms of ephedrine. Give me a break.

Sig, I don’t think Michael is going to be eating chocolate, drinking pop, taking cold medications to enhance his performance. If he uses these as they are designed for “no hipocrisy”. I know steroids, prohormones, caffein, effedra and many other substances are drugs. My point…How important is it to have that muscle or strip that fat and how fast can I get there! Personally I have my own boundaries but there isn’t a day goes by that I dont ponder getting there fast. Look at what we have legally at our disposal. Legality isn’t always the deciding factor is it? I’m at the 5 year mark and gains are slow without supplementing. I supplement. Thats my choice cost not being an issue. I’m greatful to be able to use supplements and for those people who help me make a descision on what to use. Ok. Off my little soabox!

Hmmm. I think Adam (a.k.a. the Alpha-man) was the only natural man. You know, foraging and hunting (maybe using his bare hands). So, he only used what he could Find (coconuts and fish and etc). But I think a thing is Not a man unless it can find Out. So, Because he Was a man, he Made Tools to forage and hunt (and sleep and be safe and (if he was kinky) have sex). He didn’t just pick up rocks and throw them, that SO? Made Tools.

I think Whatever each of us Does as a man is natural, because we Each have a Free Will. So just be responsible and don't whack yourselves with Tools (or anyone else!) way before your time.

I think to say because an occurrence, a reaction, does not occur in nature is being Blind to the fact man Is a part of nature. Man Intervenes. I seriously don’t think Any compound a man can come up with is unnatural, he simply (!) used what was Already There to Synthesize, to use Tools. To forage and hunt and Enjoy, if he so chooses.

Amen;)