T Nation

Natural Limits


I've been lifting for about 5 years. More seriously over the last 3 and been using gear the last 2. I've learned alot from forums like this and I appreciate everyones input.

I'm 35 years old, 5'10" and approx 225lbs and 13-14%bf. I work all the muscle groups with the exception of legs because they are genetically large and if I work them they swell right up and I have a hard time finding pants that fit (yeah, I know, some of you will say that is a lame reason). I do deads so my legs do get some work plus I teach martial arts so they get worked there some as well.

On my last two cycles I've gotten my upper arms to grow to 17.5" but after the cycle they drop back down around 16.75 (I don't bother to measure other areas but I give them equal attention in the gym). I use HCG at 500iu's E3D during the cycle and start clomid a couple weeks after the last inj. What I'm wondering is have I reached my natural limit? Is 16.75" going to be all my body will support when I'm not on gear, if so that sucks out loud, I wanted to support an 18.5" gun when I was off cycle.

My diet when I'm not on (right now using Primo at 200mgs/week) is...

B-fast- 6 eggs, banana or ww toast

2-3 hours later

Meal replacement shake with about 50g protein, 35g carbs and a fair amount of fat from a BIG tablespoon of natural p-nut butter.

Lunch- 1.5 chicken breasts, and about 50-60g of complex carbs

2-3 hours later

Protein bar with 30-45g protein and 20-30g carbs

2-3 hours later

Another protein bar(s)

before bed- Low Carb protein shake and to be honest that is about every other night, on the nights I don't have that I cram shit in my face

If I'm on a cycle I probably throw another 100g protein in thru the day and 100g carbs.




Sounds like you are not eating enough real food. You listed 6 eggs a slice of toast and some chicken breast. Ground beef? Wheat pasta? Ground turkey? Brown rice? If you want your body to grow you need to feed it more, especially if you are around 225. You got me by 30 pounds and I eat as much solid food as you do by 10 am. The squat excuse is a bad excuse, trust me your legs will not grow forever and pants stretch. Your body will not allow any one part to outgrow the others by to much, you need to work your legs.


More fat! A lesson I learned when I started to gain weight. Went from 171lbs to 265lbs over a course of 5 years. Eat good sources of fat. Supplement with fish oil, flax oil, salmon oil, CLA, eat more fish, eat more meat, eat more green veggies, cook with olive oil. Screw peanut butter. No offense, but I hate when I ask people if they are getting good sources of fat and they tell me "oh yeah I eat a fat ass scoop of peanut butter before I go to bed every night! And I throw some PB in my shakes as well!" There are more calories per gram of fat than protein or carbs. You definitely need to up your calories, and eating more fats will facilitate this.


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To add 1" to your arms you need to gain 15lbs. When your arms return to their pre-cycle size, is the weight coming off also?

And to gain weight, squat and eat...


if your stats are correct... i wish i could eat that little and remain 225.

to get to 225-230lbs naturally when i was 20, i had to eat 4lbs Chicken, 1 gallon of Milk, 1 gallon OJ, family pack of Egg noodles and 3 Monster Shakes...every day



Bro how the fuck could you do a gallon of milk a day? I've tried but never could.


Bro why the fuck would you do a gallon of milk a day? I would never try.

I haven't had milk in over 4 years. I makes me gag! :X


It sounds like we have very similar builds, but I am still growing. Why? You only eat 2 real food meals a day. Even if you get your protein requirement from your shakes, your body needs all of the micronutrients contained in real food to grow properly.

I still don't view drinking a shake as a meal. I eat 5 real food meals a day, and drink 2 shakes. Get some real food into your system and use the shakes to supplement your diet.


Well here are my thoughts:

one thing for sure is that many supplements don't contain as much protein as they advertise. The ol' "this statement has not been evaluated by the food and drug..." pretty much says it all.

So I agree with all, you need more real food.

also you need to pound the food - proteins and Calories directly after your workout. I like to get in 2-3 meals after a workout here is an example (this is what I do) directly after workout 30g of 0.4% cottage cheese mixed with fruit and 5g creatine, a protein-carb blend shake, and then after that I have supper. By doing this you are maximizing your own body's insulin to push as much food into the muscles as possible.

I have also done mega shakes before that contain 3000 calories. You feel bloated as hell and fart like a cow - this btw is incredibly f'n uncomfortable, but the insulin rush is really noticeable and so are the size gains.

By manipulating your food intake this way you can maximize your gains, and the muscle you retain when you are off cycle.

Getting in the rest of your servings of protein per day besides that is a piece of cake, there is no reason you should be having upwards of 5 shakes.

As for your hcg protocol and your off cycle protocol, doing 200 mg of primo isn't what I consider going off cycle. The more AAS you do while technically off cycle will limit the gains you make the next time you go on cycle. That's just the way things work.