Natural GHR vs. GHR Bench?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]L-Dee wrote:
I recently discovered a sports facility where they have a glute ham bench.
My current gym membership lasts until the end of this month. This one doesnt have a glute ham bench so i do natural GHR eccentrics (not strong enough to do a full concentric rep without pushoff).

It takes about 20min for me to walk to my gym now. The other facility is in another part of town, and it takes about an hour to get there.

What I’m asking is, is a glute ham bench that much more better than natural GHRs that i should invest the time to go to the other facility and train?
Which one is harder to do, bench or natural?[/quote]

I am big advocate of GHR. I however, pretty much only like the old school GHR. GHR bench, or whatever are not as effective. This is coming from my xp, though, I know my body better than yours so just think about what I am saying, k?

There seems to be a secondary discussion here, about the “necessity” of GHR ( both kinds ). I agree you don’t have to GHR to get a “big” Squat/DL, but I think GHR deserves more cred than being just an “accessory” lift. Technically one does not have to even DL to raise the #/kilos on the movement. That’s not my style, but it is true nonetheless.

Here’s the deal dude; why would you go 1hr out of your way for one movement? I personally really like V-bar dipping stations, they are just a good as flat bench for your chest ( if performing the correct variations ). I am not going one full hour out of my day to get to a V-bar dipping station, when I could flat bench, or decline within minutes. Make sense?

22

[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
I disagree with some of the sentiments on this thread. I think the GHR is one of the best pieces of equipment out there.

That said, I’m not a competitive powerlifter. I do have decent lifts (2.5X BW squat and deadlift, almost a 2X BW bench) but I’m an athlete first and foremost.

When I do GHRs regularly (4X a week, twice weighted and the other two times unweighted with high reps) I am much faster and explosive and feel much more powerful coming out of the hole on squats and pulling the bar off the ground with deads. Not to mention that my hammies blow up too. [/quote]

Thats a lot of “raising”! Im assuming you use the bench? How did you progress, where did you start out? How big was your squat before you started?

23

[quote]LAMF wrote:
L-Dee wrote:
I recently discovered a sports facility where they have a glute ham bench.
My current gym membership lasts until the end of this month. This one doesnt have a glute ham bench so i do natural GHR eccentrics (not strong enough to do a full concentric rep without pushoff).

It takes about 20min for me to walk to my gym now. The other facility is in another part of town, and it takes about an hour to get there.

What I’m asking is, is a glute ham bench that much more better than natural GHRs that i should invest the time to go to the other facility and train?
Which one is harder to do, bench or natural?

I am big advocate of GHR. I however, pretty much only like the old school GHR. GHR bench, or whatever are not as effective. This is coming from my xp, though, I know my body better than yours so just think about what I am saying, k?

There seems to be a secondary discussion here, about the “necessity” of GHR ( both kinds ). I agree you don’t have to GHR to get a “big” Squat/DL, but I think GHR deserves more cred than being just an “accessory” lift. Technically one does not have to even DL to raise the #/kilos on the movement. That’s not my style, but it is true nonetheless.

Here’s the deal dude; why would you go 1hr out of your way for one movement? I personally really like V-bar dipping stations, they are just a good as flat bench for your chest ( if performing the correct variations ). I am not going one full hour out of my day to get to a V-bar dipping station, when I could flat bench, or decline within minutes. Make sense?

[/quote]

Okay I’m asking this from everyone, but how have you progressesd in the movement? What was it like starting out?

I catch your drift. You’re saying that a GHR is a good lift, but one doesn’t necessarily need the bench to get the benefits out of it?

Yes it makes sense, and I feel kind of relieved that it’s not that big of a deal, though I didnt think it was “the shit” to begin with. E.g. my experience with the reverse hyper is kind of similar. For long i wanted to be able to it, and finally found a gyn, this one i go to now, that had it. I used it for a few sessions before they took it away, I felt it mainly in my lower back which wasnt welcomed, so now I dont see it as a necessary piece of gym equipment.

24

[quote]L-Dee wrote:
Dominator wrote:
Well, doing them without bench is way harder and different.

For me, I need to pad to dig into on the way up. I’m pretty certain I wouldn’t be able to do many reps without the bench.

I do know guys that can do sets of 10 without a bench, but they are also small and lean, so if you’re a bigger guy, I’d say go with the bench because you’ll be able to get more reps in.

How have you progressed with GHRs?
I’m actually quite big, 6’5" 215 lbs, so that might apply to me.[/quote]

The GHR’s have helped with my DL more than anything else. I’d say it gave me 50 lbs or so.

As far as you and your frame, if you have a long torso, the natural GHR woulb ebe tough, and in that case the bench would make it easier.

25

Here’s my .02 on this topic.

I think that GHR’s are benefitial, but it’s not supposed to be a primary strength move, it’s always a secondary thing that should be done at the end of a workout after your primary hamstring move. The same is true with the Reverse Hyper.

Now if you work heavy on the Hyper at the end of the workout, it’s going to give you a carryover. I had a bad back for about 6-8 weeks, and during that time, all I did was Hypers and GHR’s, and when it came time to come back and DL, I had a nice PR the first time back. Now I know that the PR could be a number of factors, but it’s hard to dispute that when you lay off pulling for 6-8 weeks and you come back the first time with a PR, it’s hard to neglect that the exercise didn’t play a part.

So, do I think the GHR is a necessity…not at all. You can get plenty of strengthening out of numerous different exercises. If you have access to it, I say use it, and use that and the Hyper frequently, but if you don’t, it’s not like either of those two pieces are what’s holding you back from potential improvements.

26

[quote]L-Dee wrote:

Okay I’m asking this from everyone, but how have you progressesd in the movement? What was it like starting out?

[/quote]

You stated in your first post that you can only do the excentric part of the movement. What you need to do is make this more demanding, by adding weight when you contract your hamstrings during the excentric. Holding onto a 6’ standard bar for vertical assistance, can help too if your a rank beginner at GHR. Again, you want to one day complete a full GHR, so another tech to help you progress is to perform the excentric with the 6’ bar held out in front, but don’t “lean” into it, just slide down it ( focus on contracting your hamstrings ) until your at the floor, now contract your hamstrings like hell, and move up. You’ll quickly hit your “ceiling”, now push off of the bar for assistance. Work on lessening your dependence on the bar, each week and you should be good pretty soon. That last tech, can be a pain to learn for some, because you don’t use to bar to assist during the whole movement, only the parts where you need it. Also people get lazy, and start to nurse the bar…don’t go down that road…

Now what I did when I was a kid, was weighted excentrics, one day. Always progressing with reps/sets/weight you know. And another day doing non-weighted excentrics, and last day ( heavy day ) using the bar for assistance, without weight.

One day, you could be doing full ROM GHR with chains, plates, weighted vests etc. Good times.

27

[quote]LAMF wrote:
L-Dee wrote:

Okay I’m asking this from everyone, but how have you progressesd in the movement? What was it like starting out?

You stated in your first post that you can only do the excentric part of the movement. What you need to do is make this more demanding, by adding weight when you contract your hamstrings during the excentric. Holding onto a 6’ standard bar for vertical assistance, can help too if your a rank beginner at GHR. Again, you want to one day complete a full GHR, so another tech to help you progress is to perform the excentric with the 6’ bar held out in front, but don’t “lean” into it, just slide down it ( focus on contracting your hamstrings ) until your at the floor, now contract your hamstrings like hell, and move up. You’ll quickly hit your “ceiling”, now push off of the bar for assistance. Work on lessening your dependence on the bar, each week and you should be good pretty soon. That last tech, can be a pain to learn for some, because you don’t use to bar to assist during the whole movement, only the parts where you need it. Also people get lazy, and start to nurse the bar…don’t go down that road…

Now what I did when I was a kid, was weighted excentrics, one day. Always progressing with reps/sets/weight you know. And another day doing non-weighted excentrics, and last day ( heavy day ) using the bar for assistance, without weight.

One day, you could be doing full ROM GHR with chains, plates, weighted vests etc. Good times.

[/quote]

Hey man, thanks for the thorough reply.
Now, I cant even control all of the eccentric portion of the lift, what happens is I’ll starting yeilding, and at round halfway through, I cant hold the contraction no more and have to come down on my hands.
Now, adding weight would only make me collapse quicker, no? Did you have this same problem when you were starting out?

So with the bar, I’d just hold it vertically with my hands, and have it as support once I cant contract my hams hard enough?
I havent tried that one either, so maybe worht a shot. One problem with this is the same as with pushing off with hands when on the ground; it’s kind of subjective, and hard to measure the actually effort given by the aid (bar or hands)…

cheers

28

[quote]L-Dee wrote:
LAMF wrote:
L-Dee wrote:

Okay I’m asking this from everyone, but how have you progressesd in the movement? What was it like starting out?

You stated in your first post that you can only do the excentric part of the movement. What you need to do is make this more demanding, by adding weight when you contract your hamstrings during the excentric. Holding onto a 6’ standard bar for vertical assistance, can help too if your a rank beginner at GHR. Again, you want to one day complete a full GHR, so another tech to help you progress is to perform the excentric with the 6’ bar held out in front, but don’t “lean” into it, just slide down it ( focus on contracting your hamstrings ) until your at the floor, now contract your hamstrings like hell, and move up. You’ll quickly hit your “ceiling”, now push off of the bar for assistance. Work on lessening your dependence on the bar, each week and you should be good pretty soon. That last tech, can be a pain to learn for some, because you don’t use to bar to assist during the whole movement, only the parts where you need it. Also people get lazy, and start to nurse the bar…don’t go down that road…

Now what I did when I was a kid, was weighted excentrics, one day. Always progressing with reps/sets/weight you know. And another day doing non-weighted excentrics, and last day ( heavy day ) using the bar for assistance, without weight.

One day, you could be doing full ROM GHR with chains, plates, weighted vests etc. Good times.

Hey man, thanks for the thorough reply.
Now, I cant even control all of the eccentric portion of the lift, what happens is I’ll starting yeilding, and at round halfway through, I cant hold the contraction no more and have to come down on my hands.
Now, adding weight would only make me collapse quicker, no? Did you have this same problem when you were starting out?

So with the bar, I’d just hold it vertically with my hands, and have it as support once I cant contract my hams hard enough?
I havent tried that one either, so maybe worht a shot. One problem with this is the same as with pushing off with hands when on the ground; it’s kind of subjective, and hard to measure the actually effort given by the aid (bar or hands)…

cheers[/quote]

If you want to make it measureable, lower yourself in a GHR until your chest hits a box at X height. If you can do the full range lowering until X, then start loading the movement in range of motion from the top to X. So try to increase X after that, or increase load.

29

I agree that for athletes the GHR is very valuable, especially for sprinters, but I also think doing them on the floor is way more beneficial, and twice as hard. My gym had a GHR bench and I could do 50lbs weighted lifts till the cows came home, then they took the bench out and we had to start doing them on the floor, couldn’t do a single rep all the way down for about a month, and never before hit the glutes and hamstrings the way they do. Thet definitely carry over onto the track as well. But it probably won’t make a big difference as far as powerlifting is concerned.

30

[quote]L-Dee wrote:

Hey man, thanks for the thorough reply.
Now, I cant even control all of the eccentric portion of the lift, what happens is I’ll starting yeilding, and at round halfway through, I cant hold the contraction no more and have to come down on my hands.
Now, adding weight would only make me collapse quicker, no? Did you have this same problem when you were starting out?

So with the bar, I’d just hold it vertically with my hands, and have it as support once I cant contract my hams hard enough?
I havent tried that one either, so maybe worht a shot. One problem with this is the same as with pushing off with hands when on the ground; it’s kind of subjective, and hard to measure the actually effort given by the aid (bar or hands)…

cheers[/quote]

If you can only control 1/2 of the excentric then that is what we have to work with. Here are some ideas.

Contract your hamstrings during the first half of the excentric, with the bar in front of you. Then when your hamstrings give use the bar, but contract your hamstrings at the same time. You’ll be doing a half ROM, GHR here, with a bar. With time you should be able to go lower, and lower, but you will still be needing the bar on early portions of the concentric.

The idea there again, is to always focus on hams even when using the bar for assistance.

You can add weight to bar assisted ( 1/2 ROM in your case ) GHR, with a back pack, or chains.

Another tech is to get a partner to “catch” you just as you begin to lose ham strength and fall. Then using this person like a wall, contract your hamstrings for the concentric portion. Your partner can even push you up a little at first if need be, but you should be beyond that in no time, as you are doing 1/2 ROM GHR here. This is a little tricky, as it demands honest two-way communication between you and the person assisting.

Hockeychamp’s “box” idea is something I’ve used too. It’s pretty good at simulating the “wall” of a partner. With the solid objects though you have to rely on your own push, if you need that for the first part of the 1/2 ROM concentric. Be honest and sensible, though right now you might need a higher object than you would like, but you will progress if you focus on your hamstrings as much as possible and continually lower the height of the box or whatever you are using.

You can add weight to the excentric using the box tech, with back packs vests etc.

31

[quote]LAMF wrote:
L-Dee wrote:

Hey man, thanks for the thorough reply.
Now, I cant even control all of the eccentric portion of the lift, what happens is I’ll starting yeilding, and at round halfway through, I cant hold the contraction no more and have to come down on my hands.
Now, adding weight would only make me collapse quicker, no? Did you have this same problem when you were starting out?

So with the bar, I’d just hold it vertically with my hands, and have it as support once I cant contract my hams hard enough?
I havent tried that one either, so maybe worht a shot. One problem with this is the same as with pushing off with hands when on the ground; it’s kind of subjective, and hard to measure the actually effort given by the aid (bar or hands)…

cheers

If you can only control 1/2 of the excentric then that is what we have to work with. Here are some ideas.

Contract your hamstrings during the first half of the excentric, with the bar in front of you. Then when your hamstrings give use the bar, but contract your hamstrings at the same time. You’ll be doing a half ROM, GHR here, with a bar. With time you should be able to go lower, and lower, but you will still be needing the bar on early portions of the concentric.

The idea there again, is to always focus on hams even when using the bar for assistance.

You can add weight to bar assisted ( 1/2 ROM in your case ) GHR, with a back pack, or chains.

Another tech is to get a partner to “catch” you just as you begin to lose ham strength and fall. Then using this person like a wall, contract your hamstrings for the concentric portion. Your partner can even push you up a little at first if need be, but you should be beyond that in no time, as you are doing 1/2 ROM GHR here. This is a little tricky, as it demands honest two-way communication between you and the person assisting.

Hockeychamp’s “box” idea is something I’ve used too. It’s pretty good at simulating the “wall” of a partner. With the solid objects though you have to rely on your own push, if you need that for the first part of the 1/2 ROM concentric. Be honest and sensible, though right now you might need a higher object than you would like, but you will progress if you focus on your hamstrings as much as possible and continually lower the height of the box or whatever you are using.

You can add weight to the excentric using the box tech, with back packs vests etc.

[/quote]

Alrighty, that helps even more. The partner, or box tip could be quite handy, would make it a bit easier to measure.
I’m looking forward to implementing these techs into my training. Thanks, you’ve been of great help.

32

One thing I’d like to add to this thread is the idea of using a Jump Stretch band to assist with the movement.

I’ve been doing the natual GHR on a lat pulldown machine with a band attached to the cable handle (what you pulldown to work the lats). I set the stack to its max (250 lbs. at my gym). I then wrap the band around my chest under my arm pits. The band’s tension is at its greatest when you are at your weakest (at the bottom of the movement).

Using this method, I’m able to complete full reps with a concentric and eccentric without having to push off a bench at the bottom. I use a monster-mini band for these. Eventually, when I’m stronger, I’ll probably just continue using the band but will hold a DB in front of my chest. That way I can increase the difficulty but will still have a good deal of tension to get out of the “hole.” Try it, I’m confident you’ll like it.

33

[quote]eic wrote:
One thing I’d like to add to this thread is the idea of using a Jump Stretch band to assist with the movement.

I’ve been doing the natual GHR on a lat pulldown machine with a band attached to the cable handle (what you pulldown to work the lats). I set the stack to its max (250 lbs. at my gym). I then wrap the band around my chest under my arm pits. The band’s tension is at its greatest when you are at your weakest (at the bottom of the movement).

Using this method, I’m able to complete full reps with a concentric and eccentric without having to push off a bench at the bottom. I use a monster-mini band for these. Eventually, when I’m stronger, I’ll probably just continue using the band but will hold a DB in front of my chest. That way I can increase the difficulty but will still have a good deal of tension to get out of the “hole.” Try it, I’m confident you’ll like it. [/quote]

Thats sounds like a great idea. Problem is, my gym doesnt have bands. They do have some type of a a bungee cord though, so I’ll have to try that one out. Thanks

34

[quote]L-Dee wrote:
Thats sounds like a great idea. Problem is, my gym doesnt have bands. They do have some type of a a bungee cord though, so I’ll have to try that one out. Thanks[/quote]

It works like a charm. My current gym doesn’t have bands either, but I plopped down the $20 and got one myself and take it with me to the gym. That is always an option if the bungee doesn’t work for you.

35

[quote]L-Dee wrote:

Thats sounds like a great idea. Problem is, my gym doesnt have bands. They do have some type of a a bungee cord though, so I’ll have to try that one out. Thanks[/quote]

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=138&pid=515

problem solved.

36

[quote]eic wrote:
One thing I’d like to add to this thread is the idea of using a Jump Stretch band to assist with the movement.

I’ve been doing the natual GHR on a lat pulldown machine with a band attached to the cable handle (what you pulldown to work the lats). I set the stack to its max (250 lbs. at my gym). I then wrap the band around my chest under my arm pits. The band’s tension is at its greatest when you are at your weakest (at the bottom of the movement).

Using this method, I’m able to complete full reps with a concentric and eccentric without having to push off a bench at the bottom. I use a monster-mini band for these. Eventually, when I’m stronger, I’ll probably just continue using the band but will hold a DB in front of my chest. That way I can increase the difficulty but will still have a good deal of tension to get out of the “hole.” Try it, I’m confident you’ll like it. [/quote]

This is a great idea. I’ve never used this because I have never, ever used bands. This is very K.I.S.S., coolness indeed.

L-Dee: This band tech sounds good. Try it out. Remember this though; if you use bands, you must make the movement harder and harder, until you are not using the band. Progress, progress, progress.

Oh yeah, and your welcome for my help. I was pretty thorough, yes. I don’t believe in half-assing things so if I shoot my mouth off about whatever, I’ll go at it until I think whomever has got what they need to do what they wanted to. In your case GHR.
Go at it!

37

That band isnt even that expensive. The shipping costs would add to the price abit since I live in Scandinavia but still…
Worth checking out

38

[quote]LAMF wrote:
eic wrote:
One thing I’d like to add to this thread is the idea of using a Jump Stretch band to assist with the movement.

I’ve been doing the natual GHR on a lat pulldown machine with a band attached to the cable handle (what you pulldown to work the lats). I set the stack to its max (250 lbs. at my gym). I then wrap the band around my chest under my arm pits. The band’s tension is at its greatest when you are at your weakest (at the bottom of the movement).

Using this method, I’m able to complete full reps with a concentric and eccentric without having to push off a bench at the bottom. I use a monster-mini band for these. Eventually, when I’m stronger, I’ll probably just continue using the band but will hold a DB in front of my chest. That way I can increase the difficulty but will still have a good deal of tension to get out of the “hole.” Try it, I’m confident you’ll like it.

This is a great idea. I’ve never used this because I have never, ever used bands. This is very K.I.S.S., coolness indeed.

L-Dee: This band tech sounds good. Try it out. Remember this though; if you use bands, you must make the movement harder and harder, until you are not using the band. Progress, progress, progress.

Oh yeah, and your welcome for my help. I was pretty thorough, yes. I don’t believe in half-assing things so if I shoot my mouth off about whatever, I’ll go at it until I think whomever has got what they need to do what they wanted to. In your case GHR.
Go at it!

[/quote]

That’s respectable. I’m also the type to ask follow up questions until I get the answer I really need.

39

Although I’d like to take credit for the band idea, I must give credit where credit is due: I found it on, of all places, Bodybuilding.com. See the following link: Posterior Chain Improvisation: Exercises That Replace The Glute Ham Raise And Reverse Hypers!

40

OK so I tried the bungee cord thing. I looped each 3 times around the shoulders of a smith machine and hooked them on the highest pins. Dont know if that makes any sense?
Anyhow, I’m still trying to get the hang of the whole thing, but at least I can lower myself more now.

One odd thing is how if I try to contract my hams on the way down, at some point, I cant seem to get lower and the bungee cord kind of holds me there, but if I let go of the tension a little bit then I can lower myself again.