Natty on Pennies

[Voxel]

It’s a good thing that you are busy, that gives me time to sneak in another question for you.

You’ve written about set point theory in the past: Let’s say someone completes their diet and end up proper lean, abs and all, (we’re talking about a future version of me). Should they try to eat at maintenance for a while so that becomes their new bodyfat setpoint before starting a clean-bulk? If yes, for how long?

For what it’s worth, I’m trying to eat at maintenance now. Maybe a bit above these first few days to kick my cold ASAP.

I’m thinking I’ll continue with that til the start of October before going on a 3-week on, 1-week off, diet approach. That means I get about two weeks worth of practice for eating at maintenance now. More like one and a half, really. So, it would look something like,

Diet for 3 weeks, 1 week off,
Diet for 3 weeks, 1 week off,
Final push for New Year’s, might go a full 4 weeks if I need to.

I’d talk about adding cardio in but I think biking to work in the snow will be adequate and if it isn’t there are so many ways I can keep myself active.

[danteism]

@Voxel

I got called Hercules by a friend I haven’t seen in months yesterday and I’m willing to bet that your physique is more developed than mine.

Well I did hear one guy tell his girl to stop glancing at me because apparently I’m on steroids. That did make me feel good in a kind of twisted way.

@Voxel

what’s your favourite way to hit rhomboids and/or rear delt

For rear delts; scapula protracted (“shoulders forward”) head supperted rear laterals with a very small ROM (think halfway up and not all the way down) slow tempo, ending the set as soon as you lose the mmc with rear delts.

That’s where I’d start and it’s a really good tool to use even when you are more advanced with rear delt training. (By the way, protracted scapula us the way to go with rear delts. Only two exceptions would be rear delta rows and power rear laterals)

The exercises mentioned above (rear delt rows and power rear laterals) hit both rear delts and rhomboids. The key here is to not go too heavy. You want to be able to begin the movement with rear delts and to be able to contract them at the top.

Power rear laterals are pretty self-explanatory; they are just your regular bent over laterals with some body English in there.

Rear felt rows, ont he other hand are a very broad subject; in my opinion they are best done with dumbbells and a “circular” motion. It’s like a hybrid between a row and a lateral raise. You could also classify wide grip rows with elbows pointed out as rear delt rows.

So, really strict small range rear laterals, power rear laterals and rear delt rows. Face pulls are also nice.

As per rhomboids, I don’t really worry about them. Rows and the rear felt exercises mentioned above hit them pretty well.

@Voxel

Should they try to eat at maintenance for a while so that becomes their new bodyfat setpoint before starting a clean-bulk? If yes, for how long?

Alternating your set point takes a long ass time if it is even possible. (Although I do strongly feel that it is) In order to do so you’d want to stay at a bit under your setpoint to a bit over your lower limit at all times. When you go under the lower limit don’t stay for too long to avoid the negative effects it has. (Think metabolic downregulation and hormonal imbalance as a starter)

Eating at maintenance for a week or so before starting your bulk isn’t a bad idea at all, it gives the body a bit of time to get used to the higher calories and thus your metabolism should speed up.

@Voxel

Diet for 3 weeks, 1 week off,
Diet for 3 weeks, 1 week off,
Final push for New Year’s, might go a full 4 weeks if I need to.

If that one week off means either at maintenance or at a slight surplus (which I assume it means) that sounds like a good plan.

After you get to a body fat% you feel comfortable with don’t let it rise too much; even with lean bulls you still want to have mini-cuts and possibly control days as well. But in the long run your weight should be raising, of course.

@Voxel

I’d talk about adding cardio in but I think biking to work in the snow will be adequate and if it isn’t there are so many ways I can keep myself active.

If you like to do stuff and be active, go ahead; just make sure to adjust your diet accordingly. (And don’t overdo the cardio part either)

[Voxel]

@danteism

Well I did hear one guy tell his girl to stop glancing at me because apparently I’m on steroids. That did make me feel good in a kind of twisted way.

Noice! That has to be reaffirming if anything.

Cheers for the rear delt, rhomboid treatment. I’m not going to quote it all Looking forward to giving the rear laterals with a small ROM a try as soon as possible. Maybe even tomorrow!

@danteism

If that one week off means either at maintenance or at a slight surplus (which I assume it means) that sounds like a good plan.

The former, maintenance. No surplus. #discipline

@danteism

After you get to a body fat% you feel comfortable with don’t let it rise too much; even with lean bulls you still want to have mini-cuts and possibly control days as well. But in the long run your weight should be raising, of course.

That is the idea. Mini-cuts are a given, depening on my programming I’ll run control days when appropriate (for instance, with what I’m doing now there are two light training days every week that are prime candidates for that).

As said, mini-cuts are a given, just have to find a suitable frequency for me with regards to how often I need to run them. I’ll do this simply by trying. 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks. Will also depend on what program, if any, I’m running too.

I want to get a bit leaner before I start gaining weight, and give myself a decent starting point for the new year. Then run a clean surplus for 3-4 months (with minicuts/control days) before dieting again for the summer season.

Thib has a great article on his site about cutting or gaining first and he makes a good point that if you start off by getting lean then you can go around all year looking pretty damn good. That’s my goal.

I have several performance-related goals for 2019 but they all pale in comparison with regards to how high I prioritize looking good, especially during the beach season. It’s like,

• Look aesthetically pleasing,
• Don’t get injured
• A bunch of lift related goals.

[danteism]

Training update:

I’m going to try something new with training… Or actually we could say I’m trying something old again.

You see, heavy weight, high intensity and frequency with a lot of food never failed me. Grinding reps and beating the logbook is what I did to build myself up.

I enjoyed this loading/pump work program, but i feel that it just wasn’t for me. Remember that the motto is “intensity with intention” every rep should be perfect, every set should have a meaning. Doing twenty sets of lateral raises just isn’t something I feel strongly about.

I’ve always gotten great results from big compound lifts, but there are bodyparts I definitely need to do some isolation work for. So that’s what I’m going to do. Cut the isolation to a bare minimum (only hitting what I absolutely feel like I need to hit), focus on big lifts, large loads and frequency.

I haven’t finished with wiring the program just yet, but I’m already testing some sessions.

Gotta get huge.

[Voxel]

Exciting. Looking forward to what you come up with. My current love is Look Like a Bodybuilder, Perform Like an Athlete if you want inspiration along the lines you are writing about (although grinding reps is the anathema of the material in that link)

[danteism]

@Voxel

Exciting. Looking forward to what you come up with. My current love is

The split there is actually exactly what I’ve planned (although my upper body days are solely upper body and lower body days are solely lover body) so upper/lower repeated for six days, after which I planned to do one neural charge-esque session. Never tried them so I figured I’d give them a whirl

@Voxel

although grinding reps is the anathema of the material in that link

Grinding reps brings me joy. It’s something I’m really good at and something that (at least seemingly) helps me with gaining mass and strength. I also recover very fast from it so I’m not too worried about doing it six days a week

Thanks for the input man!

[danteism]

It’s 1AM

Just woke up to some shouting and noises outside. Went to the window and saw that some fuck had thrown my garbage bin into our driveway.

Not gonna go out there though, I’ll just wait for a while to see if anyone comes back and go back to bed if they don’t.

[Voxel]

@danteism

Grinding reps brings me joy. It’s something I’m really good at and something that (at least seemingly) helps me with gaining mass and strength. I also recover very fast from it so I’m not too worried about doing it six days a week

I think a lot of people cannot recover from that, there are a few that can grind reps and recover and obviously you are one. Fortunate bastard. Here’s an appropriate quote,

“A muscle fiber that was recruited but not fatigued was not trained.”

The 4 Things That Trigger Muscle Growth

Maybe start with 4 grindy sessions and 2 explosive ones and then replace explosive with grindy once every 2 weeks to see how it affects your recovery if at all? But you are smart and experienced so, but I just saw a window to suggest a successive approach.

[danteism]

@Voxel

I think a lot of people cannot recover from that, there are a few that can grind reps and recover and obviously you are one. Fortunate bastard. Here’s an appropriate quote,

I remember one summer when I trained with a friend of mine who is a type 3 in the neurotyping system (that’s a key here, he has extremely low capacity to recover from volume, intensity and frequency)

We would do front squat and deadlift maxes every morning and then go back in the evening to do high volume bodybuilding work with a 3-way split. That wasn’t light either, I recall doing a 13 rep set with 170 lbs on the smith squat after doing leg presses and leg extensions as a superset.

We did it for two months straight (stopped because the school’s summer vacation ended). He told me that he’s never going to squat, deadlift or max out again. Fun times.

@Voxel

“A muscle fiber that was recruited but not fatigued was not trained.”

At the moment I’m placing a lot of emphasis on getting stronger but I’m still doing just a bit of isolation work that is fatigue based while still using a decent amount of loading (you guessed it, I’m rest-pausing things)

Using quads as an example, I’ve planned on doing 28 sets of front squat/front squat variations per week (granted, six of those sets are going to be pretty light) plus three rest-pause sets of leg extensions on one of the days. If 22 hard and grindy sets of front squats and the leg extensions are not enough to build some quads I don’t know what to think.

@Voxel

Maybe start with 4 grindy sessions and 2 explosive ones and then replace explosive with grindy once every 2 weeks to see how it affects your recovery if at all?

Up until now I’ve been doing 30-45 set training sessions on a 3 on 1 off scheme so I figured I’ll just drop the volume a bit while bringing the intensity up a notch. Started off by doing four days in a row (today was the last one). Tomorrow I’ll do a recovery sessions (or neural charge if we want to call it that) and then I’ll go for six hard sessions in a row.

Not that your suggestion was bad, it’s just that I don’t like explosive training all that much. I did, however include acceleration work with lighter weights in the program. You see, I train for bodybuilding first and foremost, and with explosive training there is a rather high chance of you doing the work with the wrong muscles. But with acceleration training you can (and should) begin every rep rather slow to get the intended muscles to fire. When that’s done you begin to accelerate and at the top just contract violently. Feels pretty good.

For example, today I did front squats with 3/2/1 waves (two waves - six sets total) after which I did front squats starting from pins for a hard 3x3. Then I dropped the weight about 25% and did 3x3 focusing on the acceleration.

If you wonder where you’ve seen this kind of setup before, it was Thib’s -“Neurotype workouts” - article. It looked like fun so I took it. It was fun.

After that I did four sets of leg curls and three sets of hip thrust, all to failure.

@Voxel

But you are smart and experienced so, but I just saw a window to suggest a successive approach.

Smart isn’t the first thing that comes to mind when I think of myself, but thanks man.

Also, thanks for the suggestions, it’s always nice to get an outsiders view of things.

[Voxel]

@danteism

I remember one summer when I trained with a friend of mine who is a type 3 in the neurotyping system (that’s a key here, he has extremely low capacity to recover from volume, intensity and frequency)

I remember you calling yourself out as a 1b but I think grinding reps is more 1a for what it’s worth. Also, I imagine you’d be fun to workout with!

@danteism

We would do front squat and deadlift maxes every morning and then go back in the evening to do high volume bodybuilding work with a 3-way split. That wasn’t light either, I recall doing a 13 rep set with 170 lbs on the smith squat after doing leg presses and leg extensions as a superset.

Epic summer!

@danteism

Up until now I’ve been doing 30-45 set training sessions on a 3 on 1 off scheme so I figured I’ll just drop the volume a bit while bringing the intensity up a notch. Started off by doing four days in a row (today was the last one). Tomorrow I’ll do a recovery sessions (or neural charge if we want to call it that) and then I’ll go for six hard sessions in a row.

Not that your suggestion was bad, it’s just that I don’t like explosive training all that much. I did, however include acceleration work with lighter weights in the program. You see, I train for bodybuilding first and foremost, and with explosive training there is a rather high chance of you doing the work with the wrong muscles. But with acceleration training you can (and should) begin every rep rather slow to get the intended muscles to fire. When that’s done you begin to accelerate and at the top just contract violently. Feels pretty good

Fair point, do what you like!

I remember CT writing in a different topic,

@Christian_Thibaudeau

Net muscle gain in the difference between protein synthesis and degradation.

With low reps you might not stimulate as much protein synthesis per session but if you train a muscle more frequently you have more episodes of protein synthesis and if you minimize cortisol production you get a greater net muscle gain.

and I guess you simply don’t produce much cortisol which is why you can train the way you do, grow, and thrive.

@danteism

Also, thanks for the suggestions, it’s always nice to get an outsiders view of things.

One of the values of these forums I guess.

[danteism]

@Voxel

I remember you calling yourself out as a 1b but I think grinding reps is more 1a for what it’s worth. Also, I imagine you’d be fun to workout with!

I thought I was an 1b after reading the article about superheroes and stuff, when I showed it to my girlfriend a while ago she told me I was a 1a, and now that I’ve been looking further into it I feel that’s probably true. Grinding is a lot more natural to me than being explosive but the fact that I can withstand a decent amount of volume threw me off. (Along with other stuff, being objective about yourself is pretty hard)

I like to train with and to help other people in the gym so I sure hope people like training with me as well!

@Voxel

Epic summer!

It was amazing

@Voxel

and I guess you simply don’t produce much cortisol which is why you can train the way you do, grow, and thrive.

Yeah, that was very apparent while I was in the military; lack of sleep and very little food for days or even weeks on end was no problem really

@Voxel

One of the values of these forums I guess.

Definitely, I’d say the forums are worth their weight in gold but that wouldn’t really work out. All in all, it’s great that we have the opportunity to chat back and forth with likeminded people no matter the place of residence

[danteism]

Training log:

I’ll log a week’s worth of training to give you an idea of what’s happening at the moment

Upper body:

Everything is in kilos

1. Low incline bench
   3x105
   2x112.5
   1x120
   3x107.5
   2x115
   1x122.5

2. CG Bench (see notes)
   3,2,2x125
   3x3x102.5

3. Strict bent over row
   4x6x120

4. Side laterals (rest-pause, 10 breaths)
   15+8x15
   12+6x15
   12+6x15

5. Barbell curl (rest-pause, 10 breaths)
   15+8x37.5
   12+7x37.5
   12+6x37.5

weighted stretches for upper body, regular stretches for lower body

Notes:
I’m simplifying it. Going back to what I was into when I begun this log.

Had to wake up at 5am to get this session in (I needed a spotter so we went before my girlfriend had to go to work)

The top incline single was an all time PR on any kind of incline movement (granted a low incline is the easiest of them). Really happy about that. A funny thing; on the 2x112.5 set I felt like complete trash and tried to use the stretch reflex on my second rep. Damn near failed that rep. You see, I usually lower the weight really slowly and it actually helps me generate more force during the actual lift. The negative on my top single with 122.5 kgs took just about six seconds (had my girlfriend count) and it felt rather easy.

On close grips I had to use the squat rack and a separate bench which is a tad higher and two or so inches narrower than a regular bench. (The actual bench was being used by a dude who was cannot be worked in with) It was horrible. That thing digs into your back like crazy. I also had about five minutes to complete the three heavier sets as the clock was ticking and I’m not going to bench heavy without a good spotter.

The lighter three sets were acceleration work which I mentioned in the conversation with @Voxel above.

After pressing I did rows. I’m keeping these rather light in order to actually work my upper back instead of upper traps.

Finished with side laterals and curls for a couple of rest pause sets.

This was a really enjoyable session.

[Voxel]

@danteism

4x6x120

Beast. I wish you did pictures and videos.

[danteism]

It took me four years before I switched from training in big hoodies and multiple layers of clothing to training in a T-shirt, if that gives you any context of how reluctant I’m about showing my body publicly

I think it’s partly because of my past; I came from having real bad body image issues and weighting 52 kilos, and partly just from the Finnish culture; we don’t show off. If you have any level of musclular development and you go out in a tank top or even a bit too tight T-shirt people will dislike you.

But I can promise you that if I ever manage to pull of something that I feel is extraordinary I’m terms of performance or physique I’ll post it here.

That’s gonna take a while, though. Weighted in at 89 kilos today and for my height that’s not a whole lot.

[danteism]

Training log:

Lower body

Everything is in kilos, again

1. Deficit deads
   3x165
   2x180
   1x195
   3x170
   2x185
   1x200

2. Good morning from pins
   3x3x155
   3x3x120

3. Front squat w/heel elevation
   4x6x90kgs

4. Leg extension (rest-pause, 10 breaths)
   3x12+6x50

5. BW Glute bridge
   2x15

Notes:

Working the deads back in rather slowly, I’m alternating between conventional and deficit pulls at the moment. Also I’m playing around with different ways of executing the movement; did my first wave pretty much stiff legged and involved more quads in the second one.

Good mornings from pins are fun, they feel easier every single time even if you add weight

Any sets over 2 reps are horrible with front squat variations. I’ll be doing a single on regular front squats and then you’ll see just about how ridiculous the difference is

Finished with leg extensions and glute bridges, I’m kind of sprinkling the physio stuff across the whole week now.

For anyone wondering why I’m not training calves at the moment; I’ve been taking some time off of it, trying to get them into a detrained state so that when I start hitting them again they’ll respond. (Gonna start as soon as the smith machine gets fixed; first week it’ll be 3 days and 4 sets each session, after that I’ll hit them every day and add volume every week for 6 or so weeks)

I’ve got to bench without a spotter tomorrow, if I’m not posting I’m either dead or in the ER

[danteism]

Training log:

Upper body:

1. Bench
   3x117.5
   2x127.5
   1x137.5
   3x120
   2x130
   1x140

2. High incline CGB
   3x3x92.5
   3x3x77.5

3. Meadows row
   3x8x60/side

4. Hammer drag curl (rest, pause, 10 breaths, DBs)
   3x12+6x22.5

5. Low to high cable fly (rest-pause, 10 breaths)
   3x12+5-7x18

Weighted stretches for upper body, regular ones for lower body

Notes:

Didn’t die.
My girlfriend’s work shift was moved from morning to night (and they told her about it in the morning, which was not cool. At least they did it by sending a message just before she was leaving instead of waiting for her to get there)

So I got myself a training partner.

Started off by renewing my 3 plate bench press club card, which is always cool but I’ve got to get further if I want to actually build muscle.

High incline CGB is a weird and a very difficult exercise. Jesus.

Hammer drag curls give me a nasty pump, especially when done in a rest-pause fashion.

For the last two weeks I’ve managed to hit the gym almost every time the elderly people’s circuit training is going on. It’s actually a really good time to train, they don’t use the squat rack or the bench and there are no other people at the gym when they are working out, so we get along quite well

[duketheslaya]

@danteism

Any sets over 2 reps are horrible with front squat variations.

I agree. I’m trying to do higher reps but i end up start choking after 5 lol.

@danteism

It’s actually a really good time to train, they don’t use the squat rack or the bench and there are no other people at the gym when they are working out, so we get along quite well

Lmao

[danteism]

I’ve once had to take part in an elderly circuit training class during an internship at a gym. Man, I killed it.

@duketheslaya

I agree. I’m trying to do higher reps but i end up start choking after 5 lol.

I don’t have that much of a choking problem, it just sucks in every other way. (Namely my ego gets crushed every single time)

On the other hand, low rep front squats feel amazing.

[Voxel]

@danteism

It took me four years before I switched from training in big hoodies and multiple layers of clothing to training in a T-shirt, if that gives you any context of how reluctant I’m about showing my body publicly

It does. Can relate, but I’ve just tried to step outside of my body image issues at least here on T-nation.

@danteism

and partly just from the Finnish culture; we don’t show off. If you have any level of musclular development and you go out in a tank top or even a bit too tight T-shirt people will dislike you.

Same in Sweden, but I never asked to be liked. Now that I’m fitter, if the sun is shining, I’m getting some rays. That season is over though. Double digit temperatures are a mere memory now. Soon, it’ll be dark going to work and going home from work. How far up north in Finland are you located?

@danteism

But I can promise you that if I ever manage to pull of something that I feel is extraordinary I’m terms of performance or physique I’ll post it here.

Looking forward to it!

[danteism]

@Voxel

It does. Can relate, but I’ve just tried to step outside of my body image issues at least here on T-nation

I ain’t that brave, man

Adding to the long list of whys, (gonna try not to come off as whiny and depressive) I was picked on a lot during my school years. (I’d say from grades 1-8 or so) when I started training, gained some muscle and became more confident (and thus managed to become actually social) it stopped. In a sense, training and becoming stronger and bigger worked as a catalyst for me to turn my life around. You know, I became quite popular, got a girlfriend and all that. When I moved to another city for my upper secondary and I was confident right off the bat only good things came my way.

So what is the why in this story? You know. If someone was to take,say a picture of me and to use it against me I’d fucking crumble. In a way, my body is like an armor to me, take it away and I’m pretty vulnerable. That’s why I’m so critical of myself and refuse to post really anything that could lead to anyone finding out who I am. (Also why I’m so anal about my privacy). There’s always that little voice in the back of my head telling me what could happen if someone recognized me and wanted to harm me for some reason. Call me superstitious and I’ll tell you that you’re completely right.

@Voxel

Same in Sweden, but I never asked to be liked. Now that I’m fitter, if the sun is shining, I’m getting some rays. That season is over though. Double digit temperatures are a mere memory now. Soon, it’ll be dark going to work and going home from work. How far up north in Finland are you located?

I don’t think I’ve ever went out in public in anything less than a T-shirt.

I’m rather south, actually. Hopefully it’ll be a good winter. One of my favourite things to do is to wake up early during winter, have my breakfast and to be in the gym as soon as it opens. (which would be 5AM) It’s amazing to train when it’s like -25 degrees celsius outside and it’s snowing like crazy. Something about it is just so calming and comforting.