Natty on Pennies

You are most likely not eating enough
Also, you should make sure that you are making strength gains in controlled fashion, so no bouncing on the bench to get more reps or squatting high to handle more weight.
This is one of the reasons I use deadlift, atg front squat and overhead press as my bread and butter movements; they are hard to cheat on

Think about deadlift: the bar has to be briefly rested on the ground between every rep. This ensures that all of your gains come from getting stronger, not from making the movement easier (given that you don’t pull with a rounded back)

When squatting, you may only go halfway down when the weight gets heavy so you may end up doing 3.full squats and 3 partials instead of 4-5 full squats.
But with the deadlift you know that the weight must be rested on the ground or it doesn’t count.

So briefly:
Eat more and make sure you are lifting with a good technique every single time.

I don’t do that, and I don’t recommend your I do that if it doesn’t motivate you.

A couple of things that may cause this:

  1. They have been lifting longer than you
  2. They know how to use filters and angles to their advantage
  3. They are genetically gifted
  4. They are really not that much more bigger, they are just a bit leaner and you (as you are young) haven’t developed an eye for this stuff (aka. You don’t have the ability to realistically evaluate your physique and compare it to others. Don’t get discouraged, it develops with age)
    If you ask me, number 4 is the most likely of these (alongside number 2)

74 kg at 5’7" is not really that small, but it is likely that you have some fat on you as well as muscle, I remember when I dieted down (and even lost some muscle during the diet because I was really busy at the time) I looked a lot better when I was lighter (comparing 247 to, say 225) added muscle definition really does wonders to your physique.

Also, as you have been lifting for relatively short time, your muscles haven’t developed the hard look (muscle maturity) just yet. It will take time but if you keep at it you will look great in a few years. (This is why the adults look good)

You could try to diet down to 68-70kg range, if you do it smartly you will gain muscle while losing fat. This would be done just so you see what difference even a few kilos of fat do on your body (I don’t recommend this as you are young and there are a lot of better ways to go from here)

What I would personally do is I would make you hold your weight in the 73-76 kg range, add some cardio and play around with your diet a bit so you’d get more muscular while holding the same weight (aka. You’d lose fat and gain muscle at the same rate) then when you would hit the point where progress comes to a halt this way (or you would want to start gaining muscle faster, as this way is a bit slower) I would change your diet accordingly.

Woah, this got a bit lengthy, hope it helps!

If I forgot to answer to something or you have something other on your mind, feel free to ask!

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Yea unfortunately. I’m a recovered bulimic of 12 years. I’ve only been recovered for 2-3ish years.

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I’m not a guy, but I’ve noticed that threshold is good for chicks quite a bit. At least for me. I’m not at 20 at the moment. More like 22-23 ish area.

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That takes a lot of mental fortitude, you have my respect.

The most important thing is that you are performing well and are happy with your body

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Well thank you for the kind words. And I don’t really count the first year because it was literally 12 months of just fighting against all these toxic mental habits I had picked up and often failing, and trying again. Year 2 was being proactive and when I started training, and year 3ish, which is where I am now is just learning and progression. And I’m happy how far I’ve come, and if there’s something I don’t like, I just re-evaluate, and fix it, instead of punishing myself like I had been for years.

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I’ll just say this; I’m sure I cannot even understand how much strength it takes to recover from a eating disorder after twelve years.
I know that it is hard even after a year or two, (I’m not saying that a year or two is a short time to suffer from these problems, any amount of time is too much) but twelve… that’s a lot.

Training wise I have noticed that the people who have beaten depression, eating disorders or other mental health problems are usually really hard workers, it probably has to do with the fact that you must grow a lot stronger during the recovery process (and even during the time when you are suffering from the illness)

I wish everything good for you, and I know that you’ll work hard to reach your goals.

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Hey man! Great log. I have a question about your pull-up post from December. Sorry - just saw log!

Is there an advantage of being able to crank off 30 pull-ups vs adding weight once you get to 12? Obviously I know volume vs weight is a pendulum you can always play around with - but is there a benefit to high volume pull-ups, other than the challenge of it / endurance of the movement?

Thanks!

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Back when I had to stay in patient centers, I always noticed the longer people deal with issues like that, the more difficult it becomes to recover. I strongly believe eating disorders involving anorexia and bulimia and the subtypes, do something to the brain, like reasoning, points of view, thinking processes, etc. my last year at the hospital, I made close friends with a lady into her 40s who had been struggling for the majority of her life. And I hope maybe she possibly recovered but usually once people get into their mid 30s and they are still struggling they usually don’t make it.

For the people you’ve trained, specifally recovered ED people, is it harder or easier for them to put on muscle and gain strength when starting out? Or do they progress pretty much the same as other?

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Yes, you can tell girls you can do 30 pull ups in a row (and guys too, man will they be amazed by it)

On a more serious note, I did see some bicep and back growth from it (it would probably have been better if I added weight)

I did it just for the challenge, and now I know that I can do pretty much anything if I put my mind into it. It really teaches you mental toughness when you know you have to beat the amount of pull ups you did last time and you are already going in the 20+ range

So in short: a bit of added muscle, mental toughness and bragging rights

No problem, glad to have you around!

To everyone: I’ll gladly answer questions about the older topics too

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You coulda just stopped after the first sentence - good reminder :joy:

Thanks though - good stuff.

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Of course they do, it may sound rough but that is pretty much the reason most of these sicknesses exist: the way people think and reason alters and it results in getting sick; think an anorexic, already slim girl who thinks she needs to lose weight and then stops eating altogether.

It depends on the stage of their recovery, usually, if their muscles have atrophied but they have recovered to the stage where they can eat normally they progress faster than a normal individual starting out (because they are gaining old mass and strength back) but their starting point is a lot lower than the starting point of an average individual. So a recovering anorexic might need 3-5 months of training to reach the starting point of a person who has been healthy all their life.

I have not yet trained someone with a really long background of eating disorders so I cannot give my opinion on that.

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I’m not in this for the physique or the strength, I’m just after the bragging rights! :grinning:

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Thanks for the lengthy post! I really appreciate it !! I didnt know this at all. So this is why say my bicep just looks normal without flexing it but when i flex it looks like i lift? ( im not some gym bro that trains chest and arms everyday just an example btw)

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One of the reasons, yes. Another is that as a natural lifter you don’t have the “perma-pump” look steroid users have.

+your muscle insertion points and mass dictate what your arm looks like both flexed and unflexed" part of the “problem” probably lies here

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Ah no worries. I missed that! Haha

I think experience is a lot more important than age. You come across as mature and intelligent, so I’m sure most people won’t dismiss you simply due to your age. If they do, than that’s fine and it may be their loss.

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I’ll probably put the original writer’s name in caps at the beginning of the post if I post something like that again, just to avoid confusion (and accidentally taking credit for someone else’s work)
Regarding this, I could check through my files to see if I have more of these posts that everyone should read. (If people like them of course)

Oh, and a big thank you to you!

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Oh, and @planetcybertron, don’t worry, I haven’t forgotten about the promise of writing about strengthening your pulling muscles, I’ve just been really busy

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There’s no rush at all. I understand. I’m just now realizing that you’re a IntenseMuscle person too. I love that site. This site and that one are the only two websites I go to concerning lifting, I rely on IM more so for diet. And I like reading Skip’s posts on a lot of stuff.

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You are on IntenseMuscle too? Wow.
IM happens to be my favourite online discussion board (Who could have guessed)

I just finished the first post regarding strength imbalances, it would have been too wide of a topic to discuss in a single post.

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For strength imbalances between pushing and pulling muscles (Upper body, horizontal plane)

When we think about the strength imbalances between pushing and pulling muscles, we usually think of the upper body. More specifically, we think about horizontal strength (aka. Bench press vs. Bent-over row strength).

What we have to realize is that you can also have strength imbalances on the vertical movements of upper body (for example, Overhead press vs. Pull-up) although this is rare, it is possible. Apart from that we also have strength imbalances in the lower body. (Mainly between your quads and hamstrings, but also between your quads/hip flexors and glutes/hip extensors)

Let’s go trough this one by one (in different posts as this will take quite a while to write), starting with the horizontal plane of the upper body.
First step is to look at your program, at what ratio are you doing horizontal pushes vs horizontal pulls volume wise? Or better yet, think about the total tonnage of one workout.
So if you perform, say 25 reps (5x5, for example) of bench press with 200 pounds, and 25 reps of pendlay row with 120 pounds in a workout, your total tonnage for bench is 5000 pounds, but your total tonnage for pendlay row is only 3000 pounds!
If you ask me, that is a rather big difference.

I used exercises that stress quite much the same movement pattern but in different directions here, you should try to do that as well. I don’t count warm-up sets towards the total tonnage
Now what you want to do in this scenario is up the total tonnage of your horizontal pulls so it is more than the total tonnage of your horizontal presses. (I always make sure the total tonnage of pulling is more than the total tonnage of pushing when I’m coaching a client, sometimes we may have over 2x the total tonnage with pulling movements compared to pushes)
One way of doing this is upping the total reps performed on the pendlay row.
You could start doing total of 50 reps instead of 25 (using the same weight), that would mean you were to perform 10x5 instead of a 5x5.
There are a couple of problems here. First one is that it will take more time to perform a 10x5 than it will to perform a 5x5, second one is that it will take more time to recover from the workout because the volume is higher.
If you have enough time to be in the gym and are eating well, go ahead with it.
If your time is limited, enter zigzagging. (For some reason I cannot remember the correct term now) I really like zigzag sets if I’m using more volume.
Normally you would do this: (after adding rowing volume)
First 5x5 on bench with 2 minutes between sets
After bench, 10x5 of pendlay row with 2 minutes between sets.

If you zigzag, you would do this instead:
A set of 5 on bench
Rest ~30 seconds
A set of 5 on row
Rest ~90 seconds
Repeat until you have done 5 sets of both
Now that you are done with bench, you will perform the remaining 5 sets of 5 of pendlay row with 2 minutes between sets.

Now I’m not suggesting you perform a routine that only consists of 5x5 bench and 10x5 row, it’s just an example. Also, the rest times are just for example, I’d you rest 5 minutes between sets, you could do a set, rest a minute, do rows, and rest 4 minutes before the next bench set.

This way, your workout only gets a couple of minutes longer (the time needed to do 25 reps of pendlay rows, which is about a minute and a half, so not a whole lot of time)
Now there is a possibility that zigzagging between exercises like this initially hinders your performance if you are lifting around 9-10RPE (because of fatigue) if, however this goes on after 4-6 bench/row workouts I would substitute pendlay row for seal row (no lower back/glute/hamstring fatigue) and if that doesn’t work I would move a couple of sets to different days. Almost every guy or girl I’ve trained has found that zigzagging actually increases their performance after they get over the initial strength drop.

If you cannot row on your bench/push day, consider doing 10-15 band pull-aparts between each and every set. (I believe CT wrote an article about this) This really makes your shoulders feel good, and it strengthens the rear delts without hindering performance of other pulling you are performing during the week (even if it is the very next day)
Like zigzag sets, you may experience a little drop in performance when you first start doing these, but after a couple of sessions, you don’t want to live without them (or at least that’s the case with me)

You could also try adding an extra pull day to your workout routine in addition to/instead of separating your pulling volume between the other days.
So you could do either (this split is not something I really recommend, it’s here for educational purposes only)

Mon - Bench (5x5 row)
Tues - Rest
Wed - Squat (2x5 row)
Thurs - Rest
Fri - Overhead press

Sat - Deadlift (3x5 row)
Sun - Rest

Or

Mon - Bench (5x5 row)
Tues - Squat
Wed - Row (5x5)
Thurs - Rest
Fri - Overhead press
Sat - Deadlift
Sun - Rest

In the latter, you must choose your exercises carefully, so the rowing on Monday doesn’t interfere with Tuesday’s squats. (I’ve deadlifted a day before squatting without problems in the past, so I’ll go out on a limb here and say, you’ll probably be fine, but remember, I don’t know your body and you need to experiment on yourself to see what works for you)
In this example you could stick some extra pulling exercises (after the row) on Wednesday if you feel like that is necessary.

If you already have more pulling tonnage than pushing tonnage, check your form. Are you starting your rows with leg drive and then rather than pulling the bar to your body, you are going down with your body to meet the bar?
So, make sure you are initiating every rep by pulling with your back, this way it is much easier to keep the back working trough the whole range of motion.
Yes, cheat rows work too, but you need to have a good base built with clean rows (and you need to know how to cheat properly)
If I see a trainee of mine cheating on their rows whem I’ve spesifically told them to pull with their back, it’s off to doing seal rows with them. (Or another variation where it is hard to cheat)

So, in a couple of bulletpoints

  • Make sure your total pulling tonnage is equal/more compared to your pushing tonnage
    -If not, increase your pulling tonnage
    -If workouts take too long, zigzag between exercises
    -If you can’t do that, try band pull-aparts between sets of pushing exercises and separate/move the pulling volume between the other training days.
    -You could also add an extra pull day to your workweek
    -If you already have more pulling tonnage than pushing tonnage, check your form and adjust exercise selection accordingly.

Here are a couple of exercises to choose from (of course you can perform exercises that are not on the list, these are just from the top of my head)
You’ll notice that there are no one arm movements, as I don’t like the twisting factor involved when zigzagging (of course you can and should perform them elsewhere in your program), and there are no deadlifts/rack pulls as they don’t really do the intended job here.

If you find it hard to pull with your back:
-Seal rows (barbell/dumbbell)
-Seal rows on an incline bench
-Two arm dumbbell bent-over row
-Two arm dumbbell pendlay row
-Standing low pulley rows with a rope
-1 and a half rep T-bar rows (invented by DC) (pull the bar up, go halfway down, pull up again, go all the way down - that’s one rep. You can hold it on the top for a second if you feel like it)

  • Horizontal shrug

If you already know how to work with your back:
-T-Bar row (I don’t really like it too much as I have to go really heavy and it’s just too much to zigzag with, but try it)
-Pendlay row
-Bent over row
-Scrape-the rack bent-over row
-Cheat rows (use sparingly)
-Reverse grip rows (be careful)
-Trap-Bar rows

Next thing I’ll write is probably something for the young guys again, but we’ll continue with this later, maybe next week. (Even though it is pretty much the same thing for each imbalance)
Of course if you have a topic in mind, comment it below and I’ll see what I can do.
And as always, feel free to ask anything about this post/older posts!

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