National Popular Vote Compact

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

The majority of that post scrambled my brain, but as I understand it, #3 could already be a legitimate method of allocating the electoral college votes. There is nothing that says the popular vote has to be taken into consideration at the state level, so a state could decide to select their electors for the Pres and VP based on any of the houses of government’s choice in that state. This is actually how the majority of representatives to the electoral college was chosen in the first part of our country’s history, before the popular-vote-winner-take-all convention!!![/quote]

That sort of freaks me out in today’s world. Not that money wasn’t power back then to, but it is exponentially easier to collude now than then.

And I feel like the general population is so stuck in a partisan rut we are better off picking between the left and right hand of the same general party, than we would openly giving the power of choosing the most powerful man in the world to a group of what, couple hundred people?[/quote]

If you are concerned about that, then you would probably be VERY interested in North Carolina’s current political climate, where Art Pope is almost single handedly buying that state.

Citizens United was a very scary thing…

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I’d like to see states split their electoral votes based on popular votes in their state. 51% of Texas votes red, well the Republican gets 51% of Texas’ electoral votes, and the rest go to the Dem… Or they could do it by county/region. Whatever it may be, it is better than winner take all.

[/quote]

If all states did this, then that gives the election to the popular vote winner. Welcome to the team!

[quote]
The electoral college is just a formality when a state’s votes go toward the winner of the national election.[/quote]

As it should be…this isn’t legislation or referendums being voted on. It is the person who is going to lead the country. If the majority of the people want someone to lead the country, shouldn’t that person be the person that actually does it? A constitutional republic is inherently democratic in its election process, given that no other constitutional mandates restrict it.

[quote]
This system will just help further convince America’s ignorant that anything the government does is just…because now their vote will “really matter.”[/quote]

The failure of the populace to understand the confines of their constitutional republic is no reason to not allow them an appropriate say in who represents them. I submit that the current system encourages most voters to NOT vote, giving them little skin in the game to actually understand the political process in which they are participating. A popular vote election would give them much more incentive to become involved, both with their own voting but as well as the interaction with others in choosing that vote. An open exchange of information, culminating in a decision at the polls seems to be exactly what the founding fathers wanted.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Rhode Island has become the 10th state/district to pass the National Popular Vote Bill, which guarantees their state electoral college votes to the national popular vote winner. With RI, the movement is over halfway to the mandated 270 electoral votes required to make the bill go into effect (i.e. if states representing 270 electoral votes don’t sign on, no states will be on the hook to institute it).

From their website, the goal is to give a voice to every person in every state, and not just the swing states in Presidential elections. It would give Republicans a meaningful vote in blue California, which inexplicably Maximus does not want, and that last Democrat who is not already thrown in the gallows a vote in Texas.

I’m surprised there hasn’t been any discussion that I could find on this.

Thoughts?

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/index.php[/quote]

Never been a huge fan of electoral college. I never understood the argument behind it. That being said, this sounds like we’ll have 50 voters weighted votes instead 270.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Never been a huge fan of electoral college. I never understood the argument behind it. That being said, this sounds like we’ll have 50 voters weighted votes instead 270.[/quote]

Not sure I follow…

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I’d like to see states split their electoral votes based on popular votes in their state. 51% of Texas votes red, well the Republican gets 51% of Texas’ electoral votes, and the rest go to the Dem… Or they could do it by county/region. Whatever it may be, it is better than winner take all.

[/quote]

If all states did this, then that gives the election to the popular vote winner. Welcome to the team!
[/quote]

lol, that is why I tossed in the county region part.

Ultimately, fuck it. If they ban TV and radio ads, then I’m down with whatever really.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
The failure of the populace to understand the confines of their constitutional republic is no reason to not allow them an appropriate say in who represents them. [/quote]

No, that’s a reason to not allow them to vote at all. I’d like to see voting in favor of restricting others’ rights be criminalized. That should be viewed no differently than paying someone to murder your wife or rob your neighbor.

The truth is, it doesn’t matter how(or even if) we elect people if the citizens of this country don’t understand the concepts they’re voting on. We can just appoint a dictator for all I care(in fact, I’d prefer that-that way there would be no illusion amongst the ignorant that they are free and we may be able to get back a little of the rebellious spirit this country needs).

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

The majority of that post scrambled my brain, but as I understand it, #3 could already be a legitimate method of allocating the electoral college votes. There is nothing that says the popular vote has to be taken into consideration at the state level, so a state could decide to select their electors for the Pres and VP based on any of the houses of government’s choice in that state. This is actually how the majority of representatives to the electoral college was chosen in the first part of our country’s history, before the popular-vote-winner-take-all convention!!![/quote]

That sort of freaks me out in today’s world. Not that money wasn’t power back then to, but it is exponentially easier to collude now than then.

And I feel like the general population is so stuck in a partisan rut we are better off picking between the left and right hand of the same general party, than we would openly giving the power of choosing the most powerful man in the world to a group of what, couple hundred people?[/quote]

If you are concerned about that, then you would probably be VERY interested in North Carolina’s current political climate, where Art Pope is almost single handedly buying that state.

Citizens United was a very scary thing…
[/quote]

Hes creating a tea party eutopia hes allready helped pass a bunch of backasswards shit…
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/04/08/1832201/meet-the-north-carolina-legislature-the-new-ground-zero-for-tea-party-craziness/

On top of those laws I heard NC just passed a law allowing guns in night clubs and bars… As a nightclub owner I can tell you thats a bad move…

IMO citizens united = the united corporations of America

I see you are in DC I grew up there so I totally get the no taxation without representation thing. From what Ive seen NPV seems like a reasonable concept

^^^I actually live in Northern Virginia, its just easier to say DC. When I used to live in Arlington, I would tell people that and the dumbasses thought I lived in a cemetery…

But yes, if I can play the crazy drunk uncle at Thanksgiving role, Citizens United will prove to be the undoing of this country…

Thats cool my uncle lives in Leesburg nice area… I dont think its crazy you were right on for calling out NC… Its a fucked up deal next they will make watching porn a crime.

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:

Hes creating a tea party eutopia hes allready helped pass a bunch of backasswards shit…
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/04/08/1832201/meet-the-north-carolina-legislature-the-new-ground-zero-for-tea-party-craziness/

[/quote]

Once you remove the hyper-partisan and blatant lies about some of those bills, the only ones I have issue with are the judges ones (and if I read more detail about it, I might be okay with it) and the religion one.

Shit the elimination of the income tax is awesome.

Think Progress is a shit hole site, ugh.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]I submit that the current system encourages most voters to NOT vote, giving them little skin in the game to actually understand the political process in which they are participating. A popular vote election would give them much more incentive to become involved, both with their own voting but as well as the interaction with others in choosing that vote. An open exchange of information, culminating in a decision at the polls seems to be exactly what the founding fathers wanted.
[/quote]

In 2008, voter turnout in the then 15 battleground states averaged seven points higher than in the 35 non-battleground states.

In 2012, voter turnout was 11% higher in the 9 battleground states than in the remainder of the country.

If presidential campaigns now did not ignore more than 200,000,000 of 300,000,000 Americans, one would reasonably expect that voter turnout would rise in 80% of the country that is currently ignored by presidential campaigns.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I’d like to see states split their electoral votes based on popular votes in their state. 51% of Texas votes red, well the Republican gets 51% of Texas’ electoral votes, and the rest go to the Dem… Or they could do it by county/region. Whatever it may be, it is better than winner take all.

hmmm. I wonder if that type of split would help a 3rd party? Which means it will never happen, lol. [/quote]

Any state that enacts the proportional approach on its own would reduce its own influence. This was the most telling argument that caused Colorado voters to agree with Republican Governor Owens and to reject this proposal in November 2004 by a two-to-one margin.

If the proportional approach were implemented by a state, on its own, it would have to allocate its electoral votes in whole numbers. If a current battleground state were to change its winner-take-all statute to a proportional method for awarding electoral votes, presidential candidates would pay less attention to that state because only one electoral vote would probably be at stake in the state.

If states were to ever start adopting the whole-number proportional approach on a piecemeal basis, each additional state adopting the approach would increase the influence of the remaining states and thereby would decrease the incentive of the remaining states to adopt it. Thus, a state-by-state process of adopting the whole-number proportional approach would quickly bring itself to a halt, leaving the states that adopted it with only minimal influence in presidential elections.

The proportional method also could result in third party candidates winning electoral votes that would deny either major party candidate the necessary majority vote of electors and throw the process into Congress to decide.

If the whole-number proportional approach, the only proportional option available to an individual state on its own, had been in use throughout the country in the nationâ??s closest recent presidential election (2000), it would not have awarded the most electoral votes to the candidate receiving the most popular votes nationwide. Instead, the result would have been a tie of 269â??269 in the electoral vote, even though Al Gore led by 537,179 popular votes across the nation. The presidential election would have been thrown into Congress to decide and resulted in the election of the second-place candidate in terms of the national popular vote.

A system in which electoral votes are divided proportionally by state would not accurately reflect the nationwide popular vote and would not make every vote equal.

It would penalize states, such as Montana, that have only one U.S. Representative even though it has almost three times more population than other small states with one congressman. It would penalize fast-growing states that do not receive any increase in their number of electoral votes until after the next federal census. It would penalize states with high voter turnout (e.g., Utah, Oregon).

Moreover, the fractional proportional allocation approach, which would require a constitutional amendment, does not assure election of the winner of the nationwide popular vote. In 2000, for example, it would have resulted in the election of the second-place candidate.

A national popular vote is the way to make every person’s vote equal and matter to their candidate because it guarantees that the candidate who gets the most votes in all 50 states and DC becomes President.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
So instead of throwing all of the votes in the state to the majority side, they will actually count similar to the way they were cast?
[/quote]

Not exactly. They will still ALL be thrown to one side or the other, but in accordance with the NATIONAL popular vote, as opposed to the current STATEWIDE popular vote.[/quote]
The National Popular Vote bill would change current state winner-take-all laws that award all of a stateâ??s electoral votes to the candidate who get the most popular votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but since enacted by 48 states), to a system guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes for, and the Presidency to, the candidate getting the most popular votes in the entire United States.

The Electoral College is now the set of 538 dedicated party activists, who vote as rubberstamps for presidential candidates.

The bill preserves the constitutionally mandated Electoral College and state control of elections. It ensures that every vote is equal, every voter will matter, in every state, in every presidential election, and the candidate with the most votes wins, as in virtually every other election in the country.

Under National Popular Vote, every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in every presidential election. Every vote would be included in the state counts and national count. When states with a combined total of at least 270 electoral votes enact the bill, the candidate with the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC would get the needed majority of 270+ electoral votes from the enacting states. The bill would thus guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes.

National Popular Vote would give a voice to the minority party voters in each state. Now their votes are counted only for the candidate they did not vote for. Now they don’t matter to their candidate. In 2012, 56,256,178 (44%) of the 128,954,498 voters had their vote diverted by the winner-take-all rule to a candidate they opposed (namely, their stateâ??s first-place candidate).

And now votes, beyond the one needed to get the most votes in the state, for winning in a state are wasted and don’t matter to candidates. Utah (5 electoral votes) alone generated a margin of 385,000 “wasted” votes for Bush in 2004. 8 small western states, with less than a third of Californiaâ??s population, provided Bush with a bigger margin (1,283,076) than California provided Kerry (1,235,659).

With National Popular Vote, elections wouldn’t be about winning states. No more distorting and divisive red and blue state maps. Every vote, everywhere would be counted equally for, and directly assist, the candidate for whom it was cast.

Candidates would need to care about voters across the nation, not just undecided voters in a handful of swing states. The political reality would be that when every vote is equal, the campaign must be run in every part of the country.

When and where voters matter, then so do the issues they care about most.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
My biggest problem with the legislation, although I support its overall goal, is that since I don’t live in a REAL swing state is that I am mostly spared from constant campaigning and bombardment by these bozos. I don’t think I could take 8 months or whatever it is now of constant mud-slinging and “truth misrepresentin’” (hell that’s why I come to T-Nation).

If they made a compact to elect via popular vote AND limit campaigning period to 2-3 months, and banned television adverts, I would fall over myself running to the polls to vote it in…[/quote]
Presidential candidates currently do everything within their power to raise as much money as they possibly can from donors throughout the country. They then allocate their time and the money that they raise nationally to places where it will do the most good toward their goal of winning the election.

Now, presidential candidates concentrate their attention on only a handful of closely divided “battleground” states and their voters. There is no incentive for them to bother to care about the majority of states where they are hopelessly behind or safely ahead to win. 10 of the original 13 states are ignored now. Four out of five Americans were ignored in the 2012 presidential election. After being nominated, Obama visited just eight closely divided battleground states, and Romney visited only 10. These 10 states accounted for 98% of the $940 million spent on campaign advertising. They decided the election. That’s precisely what they should do in order to get elected with the current system, because the voters of 80% of the states simply don’t matter. Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or care about the concerns of voters in states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind. Over 85 million voters, 200 million Americans, are ignored.

Policies important to the citizens of non-battleground states are not as highly prioritized as policies important to â??battlegroundâ?? states when it comes to governing.

If every vote mattered throughout the United States, as it would under a national popular vote, candidates would reallocate their time and the money they raise.

When the bill is enacted by states with a majority of the electoral votes-- enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538), all the electoral votes from the enacting states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC. The bill would thus guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes.

With the current system of electing the President, no state requires that a presidential candidate receive anything more than the most popular votes in order to receive all of the state’s electoral votes.

Not a single legislative bill has been introduced in any state legislature in recent decades (among the more than 100,000 bills that are introduced in every two-year period by the nation’s 7,300 state legislators) proposing to change the existing universal practice of the states to award electoral votes to the candidate who receives a plurality (as opposed to absolute majority) of the votes (statewide or district-wide). There is no evidence of any public sentiment in favor of imposing such a requirement.

If an Electoral College type of arrangement were essential for avoiding a proliferation of candidates and people being elected with low percentages of the vote, we should see evidence of these conjectured outcomes in elections that do not employ such an arrangement. In elections in which the winner is the candidate receiving the most votes throughout the entire jurisdiction served by that office, historical evidence shows that there is no massive proliferation of third-party candidates and candidates do not win with small percentages. For example, in 905 elections for governor in the last 60 years, the winning candidate received more than 50% of the vote in over 91% of the elections. The winning candidate received more than 45% of the vote in 98% of the elections. The winning candidate received more than 40% of the vote in 99% of the elections. No winning candidate received less than 35% of the popular vote.

Since 1824 there have been 16 presidential elections in which a candidate was elected or reelected without gaining a majority of the popular vote.-- including Lincoln (1860), Wilson (1912 and 1916), Truman (1948), Kennedy (1960), Nixon (1968), and Clinton (1992 and 1996).

Americans do not view the absence of run-offs in the current system as a major problem. If, at some time in the future, the public demands run-offs, that change can be implemented at that time.

And, FYI, with the current system, it could only take winning a plurality of the popular vote in the 11 most populous states, containing 56% of the population of the United States, for a candidate to win the Presidency with a mere 23% of the nation’s votes.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I think this leaves the door open for a dictator more so than we have now, no?[/quote]

The National Popular Vote bill would end the disproportionate attention and influence of the “mob” in the current handful of closely divided battleground states, such as Ohio and Florida, while the “mobs” of the vast majority of states are ignored.

The current system does not provide some kind of check on the “mobs.” There have been 22,991 electoral votes cast since presidential elections became competitive (in 1796), and only 17 have been cast for someone other than the candidate nominated by the elector’s own political party. 1796 remains the only instance when the elector might have thought, at the time he voted, that his vote might affect the national outcome. Since 1796, the Electoral College has had the form, but not the substance, of the deliberative body envisioned by the Founders. The electors now are dedicated party activists of the winning party who meet briefly in mid-December to cast their totally predictable rubberstamped votes in accordance with their pre-announced pledges.

With the current state-by-state winner-take-all system of awarding electoral votes, it could only take winning a bare plurality of popular votes in the 11 most populous states, containing 56% of the population of the United States, for a candidate to win the Presidency with a mere 23% of the nation’s votes!

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
and there is a specific reason the country was set up a republic and not a democracy. [/quote]

Unable to agree on any particular method, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method for selecting presidential electors exclusively to the states by adopting the language contained in section 1 of Article II of the U.S. Constitution-- “Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . .” The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as “plenary” and “exclusive.”

The National Popular Vote bill preserves the Electoral College and state control of elections. It changes the way electoral votes are awarded in the Electoral College. The candidate with the most votes would win, as in virtually every other election in the country.

Under National Popular Vote, every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in every presidential election. Every vote would be included in the state counts and national count. When states with a combined total of at least 270 electoral votes enact the bill, the candidate with the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC would get the needed majority of 270+ electoral votes from the enacting states. The bill would thus guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes.

The Republic is not in any danger from National Popular Vote.
National Popular Vote has nothing to do with pure democracy. Pure democracy is a form of government in which people vote on policy initiatives directly. With National Popular Vote, the United States would still be a republic, in which citizens continue to elect the President by a majority of Electoral College votes by states, to represent us and conduct the business of government in the periods between elections.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

This will give less representation to the people who live in the sticks…

[/quote]

None of the 10 most rural states (VT, ME, WV, MS, SD, AR, MT, ND, AL, and KY) is a battleground state.
The current state-by-state winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes does not enhance the influence of rural states, because the most rural states are not battleground states, and they are ignored. When and where voters are ignored, then so are the issues they care about most.

Support for a national popular vote in rural states: VTâ??75%, MEâ??77%, WVâ??81%, MSâ??77%, SDâ??75%, ARâ??80%, MTâ??72%, KYâ??80%, NHâ??69%, IAâ??75%,SCâ??71%, NCâ??74%, TNâ??83%, WYâ??69%, OKâ??81%, AKâ??70%, IDâ??77%, WIâ??71%, MOâ??70%, and NEâ??74%.

Vermont has enacted the National Popular Vote bill. The Maine Senate passed the National Popular Vote bill.

NationalPopularVote

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I don’t particularly care for it.

Mainly because it makes high density population areas the major targets.

Two problems with this:

  1. Ground game becomes paramount to winning elections, and this is exponentially easier to exploit in urban areas.

  2. policy will begin to shift to favor cities, and only major ones at that over time.

[/quote]

The main media at the moment, TV, costs much more per impression in big cities than in smaller towns and rural area. Candidates get more bang for the buck in smaller towns and rural areas.

In the 2012 campaign, â??Much of the heaviest spending has not been in big cities with large and expensive media markets, but in small and medium-size metropolitan areas in states with little individual weight in the Electoral College: Cedar Rapids and Des Moines in Iowa (6 votes); Colorado Springs and Grand Junction in Colorado (9 votes); Norfolk and Richmond in Virginia (13 votes). Since the beginning of April, four-fifths of the ads that favored or opposed a presidential candidate have been in television markets of modest size.â?? - New York Times

16% of Americans live in rural areas.

With National Popular Vote, big cities would not get all of candidatesâ?? attention, much less control the outcome.
The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as far down as Arlington, TX) is only 15% of the population of the United States.

Suburbs and exurbs often vote Republican.

Any candidate who ignored, for example, the 16% of Americans who live in rural areas in favor of a â??big cityâ?? approach would not likely win the national popular vote.

If big cities controlled the outcome of elections, the governors and U.S. Senators would be Democratic in virtually every state with a significant city.

A nationwide presidential campaign, with every vote equal, would be run the way presidential candidates campaign to win the electoral votes of closely divided battleground states, such as Ohio and Florida, under the state-by-state winner-take-all methods. The big cities in those battleground states do not receive all the attention, much less control the outcome. Cleveland and Miami do not receive all the attention or control the outcome in Ohio and Florida.

The itineraries of presidential candidates in battleground states (and their allocation of other campaign resources in battleground states) reflect the political reality that every gubernatorial or senatorial candidate knows. When and where every vote is equal, a campaign must be run everywhere.

With National Popular Vote, when every vote is equal, everywhere, it makes sense for presidential candidates to try and elevate their votes where they are and aren’t so well liked. But, under the state-by-state winner-take-all laws, it makes no sense for a Democrat to try and do that in Vermont or Wyoming, or for a Republican to try it in Wyoming or Vermont.

Even in California state-wide elections, candidates for governor or U.S. Senate don’t campaign just in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and those places don’t control the outcome (otherwise California wouldn’t have recently had Republican governors Reagan, Dukemejian, Wilson, and Schwarzenegger). A vote in rural Alpine county is just an important as a vote in Los Angeles. If Los Angeles cannot control statewide elections in California, it can hardly control a nationwide election.

In fact, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Jose, and Oakland together cannot control a statewide election in California.

Similarly, Republicans dominate Texas politics without carrying big cities such as Dallas and Houston.

There are numerous other examples of Republicans who won races for governor and U.S. Senator in other states that have big cities (e.g., New York, Illinois, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts) without ever carrying the big cities of their respective states.

With a national popular vote, every vote everywhere will be equally important politically. There will be nothing special about a vote cast in a big city or big state. When every vote is equal, candidates of both parties will seek out voters in small, medium, and large towns throughout the states in order to win. A vote cast in a big city or state will be equal to a vote cast in a small state, town, or rural area.

Candidates would need to build a winning coalition across demographics. Candidates would have to appeal to a broad range of demographics, and perhaps even more so, because the election wouldnâ??t be capable of coming down to just one demographic, such as waitress mom voters in Ohio.