T Nation

Nandrolone Deep Dive

Ok, so inspired by @now_i_care I thought I’d share my view of nandrolone and its various iterations, the case for usage, and the potential best ways to stack it effectively.
Disclaimer: This is based on science and limited personal experience. I’m absolutely not the guy to ask about results. I’m painfully average (well, given how fat America is I guess I’m well above average, but that’s nothing to be proud of) and my approach is limited to the science and the data. If I looked as good as my knowledge is I’d be a very different guy. But I do this for recreation and for my own goals. Take everything I say with the understanding that I am not as dedicated to my diet as many of you and that I’m not a model for anyone’s behavior. This is strictly science, and most scientists aren’t expected to look as good as many on you. Thank you.

The hype
So NPP has been pretty hot the last few years. Call it supply catching up to demand, or demand creating more demand, or whatever explanation you’d like. What’s undeniable is that it has become a go-to AAS for guys who fear the dreaded (and often overblown) side effects of deca. Now deca is the undisputed king of lean mass builders. With proper diet and training deca can take an ordinary man and make him into an extraordinary specimen of peak masculinity. But it is a slow transformation. And it comes with some costs.

The dark side
Deca dick. We know it happens. Hell, there are a number of active threads on this forum about guys who have become crippled asexual messes because of this stuff. Who in their right mind would take that risk? So for years and years broscience has come up with a number of ways to avoid that dreaded aide effect. I honestly don’t know where most of them started, or why they started, but they persist. We’ve all heard them, right?

“Run your test at double the amount of deca”

Sooooo a run with 600mg deca means you need 1,200mg test…ok, enjoy your new boobs, Stormy.

“You need caber or else you’re gonna be soft for months”

Taking a dopamine agonist as a prophylactic treatment may work, but it’s not free of consequences. Have an ergot allergy? Taking caber could be very dangerous. How do you know if you’re allergic to it? Well, most people don’t take in any ergot or ergot derivatives from food (unless you live in 5th C Belgium), so you’d never know if you had an allergy. Do you use any drugs or supplements for hypertension? Caber can cause a hypotensive response that could be extremely dangerous. Think guys running cycles of Tren and Anadrol are maybe trying to mitigate high BP by taking something? I’m willing to bet they are. Mix those in with caber and you could have an issue.

“Run proviron with it and you’ll be fine”

That last one…that one may be right. In fact, throughout my time scanning various boards, reading about the actual science of various AAS, and knowing a little bit about the human body, it stands to reason that eventually one of these broscience ideas was bound to land on a correct answer.

NPP vs Deca
They’re not the same animal. They are the same chemical, but that doesn’t mean they act the same way.

The most obvious difference is the ester, right? But there’s more to it than just that. On a mg for mg basis NPP is staggeringly more effective at reaching high blood plasma concentrations of nandrolone. It’s not even close. Take a look:

NPP and deca, both dosed at 25mg/ml, reach wildly different peak concentrations. The deca tips out at ~250ng/dL while the NPP hits nearly 800ng/dL. 800. As you can see, the deca stays around longer, but the NPP spends a full 16 days before it hits terminal decline and 17 days at a concentration higher than an equivalent amount of deca. That’s important if your goal is to utilize nandrolone to build muscle.

NPP dosage
So what does this tell us? It tells us that you needn’t use a hefty dose of NPP to get superior results. This is not all due to ester weight, either. Sure, 100mg of NPP has more nandrolone in it than 100mg of deca. Obviously that’s a factor. But the peak concentrations should not be off by a factor of 3+ just because of the ester weight difference. Something about how NPP breaks down and the speed at which it is released into the blood causes it to spike up and stay high for much longer than I think most users know.

It’s not a straight line extrapolation, but I would argue that generally speaking one could run 100mg NPP twice a week and get similar results to 600mg of deca, and get those results in less time. Less time on can mean easier recovery/pct and (probably) better long term health. If the goal is adding g lean mass, why would you choose 16 weeks of deca @ 600mg/w when you could very well get close to that goal with NPP @ 200-300mg/w for something like 10 weeks? Remember, the longer you’re on something the more probable side effects can become. Everything is poison, it’s just a matter of dosage.

NPP stack options
I’m going to throw out one idea, and one idea only: Epistane

Yes, proviron is a nice DHT that has mild AI properties. Guess what else does that? Epistane has proven AI properties because it was actually discovered when Japanese scientists were looking to develop an AI. It is a DHT derivative, and it has a solid reputation for building solid lean muscle. Hell, back when they were able to get away with calling it a prohormone (it’s not; it’s absolutely an active steroid) they sold it to anyone who walked into a supplement shop and wanted it. A lot of guys ran it solo, even. And guess what? It works. Most of the people who used it did so without much knowledge of what they were doing, so I doubt there’s much muscle out there that remains from the halcyon days of legal Epistane. But it’s still an effective tool that gets ignored by purists because of its past as a “prohormone”. But as with your girlfriend, sometimes you just forget the past and focus on what’s in front of you.

I will be running a blast sometime this Fall. I’m not happy with my current diet and training schedule, so no blast until I feel like I’ve gotten a better handle on that. Family and work come before the gym, and right now those two things are dominating my life. But when I do get where I want to be, my blast will be as follows:

TRT dose as usual
NPP @ 200mg/w for 8 weeks
Epistane 30mg ed for 6 weeks

I’ll create a log and do the whole thing when it’s appropriate. The point of writing all of that, then saying I’m going to run this blast, is to give information to this forum and then test my hypothesis in a real life setting. Anyway, hope this was useful to someone.

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I was thinking about my dosage schedule this afternoon. I was debating the EOD at 1cc or Sunday, Tuesday at 1cc and Thursday at 1.5cc. The slightly larger shot coming during the period of the week I wait three days rather than two. Granted i have less experience with the shorter esters but I want as steady of a release rate as possible. My personal schedule just makes weekend shots difficult . After reading your dissertation I don’t think I would have that much fluctuation resulting in a dip if I just did 1cc three times a week.

I wonder how much difference there is for the “sustained peak” versus the propionate ester? I know people tend to group it’s shot schedule with the phenylpropionate ester or rather the other way around but that chart makes me think it needs it’s own schedule.

I am using a test blend with my run the majority of it is cypionate and enanthate so I just pin like it is that at 2xs a week usually. With this run I was thinking just measure 200mgs worth and pin it with the NPP. After seeing this I think I need to re-think my plan. I don’t like two shot schedules at varying day counts but it might be the right choice.

I’ve seen this graph, this isn’t the original graph. THIS is the original graph, taken from this study http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/281/1/93

images

NPP peaks higher because it exits the system faster, the same is true with any other shorter estered compounds. If you pin 100mg of testosterone propionate in one individual and 100mg of test E in another the guy on test P will have a much higher peak, however the substance will exit their system sooner too. Say one takes 100mg of nandrolone decanoate per week vs 50mg of NPP 2X/WK nandrolone concentrations will be very similar.

However that being said nandrolone phenylpropionate doesn’t seem to be as short estered as people think. The molar mass of nandrolone is 274.404g/mol (6.022x10^23 molecules (very big number) is a mole, and a mole of base nandrolone weighs 274.404 grams. Nandrolone PHENYLPROPIONATE has a molar mass of
406.566g/mol so 274.404/406.566=0.67 so 67 MG’s per 100mg of NPP is pure nandrolone, with the remaining 33mg compromised of the ester. 600mg of deca is not going to give you the same amount of gains as 200mg NPP, that’s not how science works, you need the same amount of pure base hormone to get the same effect, and even then it needs to be released over the same period of time for the effects to be exactly the same

Nandrolone decanoates molar mass is 428.657g/mol
428.657/274.404=0.64 therefore theoretically 64 mg/100mg is pure nandrolone while the rest is compromised of ester weight. Therefore theoretically PP ester isn’t nearly as short estered as people think, however it is a shorter ester than decanoate

Nandrolone also seems to be fairly harsh in terms of alteration of neurotransmitters and is likely far harsher than test towards overall detrimental effects on cardiac remodelling. It isn’t nearly as mild or safe as people make it out to be. One can get awesome gains off test alone, so why not just use more test.

Epistane (the designer steroid) isn’t the same as the anti estrogenic drug in Japan. Epitiostanol was the anti E in Japan, methylepitiostanol is the designer steroid. While there was another type of epitiostanol marketed in japan I believe it was mepitiostanol or something, it has the c-17AA group replaced with a 17-b hydroxyl group and is therefore digested via the lymphatic system, similar to prostanozolol I believe. The c17AA designer steroid version of epistane is supposedly highly toxic, and very harsh on the lipid profile based on what I’ve seen. Whether it still maintains its anti-e properties… Maybe, however once an anabolic steroid has a c-17AA alteration its behaviour is drastically changed, think dbol vs EQ. Or mast vs sdrol

Finally I forgot, ergot contains several poisonous alkaloids if taken in excess, ergot also contains lysergic acid… Sound familiar? Lysergic acid diethylamide… Otherwise known as LSD was synthesized from ergot as consumption of ergot, besides vasoconstriction leading to gangrene due to loss of blood flow to the limbs, vomiting and a plethora of other wonderful side effects, causes hallucinations. It is hypothesized the reason the Salem witch trials were a thing was because ergot fungus grew on the wheat that year, which is a far fetched hypothesis as the hallucinogenic properties of the fungus would probably be burnt off during the cooking of wheat however it is possible, and kinda funny to think the people might’ve just been expriencing drug induced psychosis. Several ergot alkaloids are used in prescription medicine (I think) however ergot itself if consumed is typically poisonous. Cabergoline is an ergot derivitave, it isn’t ergot

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I don’t think that’s true. If that base hormone is processed two different ways then you can have two very different effects. For evidence of this simply look at the effect of time release drugs vs immediate release. 20mg of adderall XR will have a different effect on you when compared to 20mg of the regular stuff. Ditto pain meds like Oxy. Deca doesn’t reach the peak concentrations that NPP does, so the effective dose cannot be equal. Because the ester is so big the release of it is limiting, thus it’s never at the level necessary to hit that upper echelon that NPP hits.

Yeet, buuuut this is only the case if the individual takes all the meds at once. Take oxycodone (shudders) for instance. You get XR and IR release right. So if one was to take 10mg IR it’s in and out faster, it also reaches higher peak blood plasma, causing more pain relief, sedation, NAUSEA, CONSTIPATION, DIZZINESS, INPAIRED THINKING, IMPAIRED MOTOR SKILLS… Sorry I just really dislike OxyContin. But if one was to pop one 10mg XR OxyContin (which lasts say 12 hrs, vs 2.5mg IR (although I don’t think 2.5mg tabs exist) E3 hrs, blood plasma would be roughly the same, thus giving the same effect.) Given NPP is similar in that it reaches higher blood concentrations quicker, but is also out of the system faster, the MEAN level of nandrolone in the system if taken into account all 30 days on the chart is probably roughly the same give or take 100ng/dl

Now that is a point that I’d concede is probable. But my overall argument is that hitting higher peaks more often is a good goal for a shorter cycle where maximum growth is the goal.

When I have a moment I’ll break the chart down and see if your theory about mean levels being equivalent is correct. I have a feeling you’re right, but now I’m curious as to the numbers.

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Cool, if you have the time get back to me with the results, I’m also curious to see what the exact difference is between mean nandrolone concentration of the two esters :slight_smile: on paper it should be 3% difference so I predict somewhere between a 3-6 percent difference

As to shorter cycles, higher peaks and maximum growth, probably, I can only go off data from testosterone however higher testosterone concentrations (when supraphysiologic doses are injected) correlate with more muscle mass built over time, so yes I’d say you’re right about higher peaks giving better accruation in muscle mass, however higher peaks should also signify a larger increase in erythropoiesis, higher concentrations of other hormones (in the case of 19-nortestosterone E2 and 5a-dihydro-19-nortestosterone) etc.

How’d you like the epistane compared to anavar? I’m general how’d you like it? Observations?

This thread is two years old. But he didn’t like it… gave him mood swings, elevated LFT’s quite a bit

@iron_yuppie

I love epistane, but anavar is just absolutely superior in my experience. Epi definitely made me feel like I was on something. Anavar makes me feel nothing at all. Plus the epi was harsh on my lipids and liver function compared to anavar. But it’s still worth using if you don’t mind the (albeit minor) sides.

Didn’t you say it effected your mood? Or am I thinking of someone else

What did you’re lipids, LFT’s look like on it? What dosage? Did it crash your E2? the non methylated counterpart is an antineoplastic agent/aromatase inhibitor still marketed in Japan if I recall correctly.

Why say anavar is superior if it makes you feel nothing at all? Did I read that right?

Great post iron I respect the disclaimer. And as almost always I respect your input.

I want to touch on this as iv used tren in the form of ace, enenthate, and base and I’m a huge adrol fan.

I used to be a huge caber advocate. You can probably find some post on here where I reccomend caber generally I aways say tho don’t use it unless needed. I did not adhere to my own advice when I ran my first tren blast I was using caber weekly. Thankfully I stopped using caber as it caused me major issues with prolonged ejaculation and essentially I learned I simply didn’t need it. I now advocate for the use of P5P from before cycle starts til after it ends. Actually I reccomend P5P year round if someone is going to use 19-nors as we know they can cause prolactin issues even after the cycle. Now granted we are all different some people will actually NEED caber when using tren or deca but if reccomend it as a last resort and honestly if your using tren and deca and your a recreational lifter (like my self) and you NEED caber I’d suggest not using the drugs to begin with. Caber is not something to be taken lightly.

As far as BP control on cycle I have used caber with cialis and even caber with cialis and clonodine. And never ran into a hypotensive issue. THIS DOESN’T MEAN EVERYONE ELSE WON’T. Takine cialis alone with a BP medicine can be risky altho a lot do it.

As mentioned in my previous post I was a big masteron fan I would run it on blast and cruise it gave me no negative sides on my lipids and I loved it. Then I discovered proviron. After stopping mast I feel much better using proviron. Mast would often give me major legs cramps in the morning and just over tightness thru out the day I find I get all the benefits of a dht derivative without any physical sides mast caused me.

Disclaimer: iv never used npp or deca and I don’t plan on it. It will also be a while before I use tren again after back to back tren blast it wasn’t until I came off that I realized how much it affects me mentally. As far as physical sides go I get almost none but it is mentally taxing and it’s amazing how much you don’t realize thus until afterwards.

My next blast will be test, proviron, dbol, adrol, primo and possibly GH at the beginning of April iv taken a lot longer time off this time with my cruise. I may or may not log it just depends on how much time I have. But for those who keep in contact outside forum youl def get updates regularly and afterwards I will give a detailed report on tnation.

Edit: I just saw this was an old thread but glad it got brought back up

It’s all individualistic. For me, I can say I appear to be able to use nandrolone (100-140mg weekly) without any induced significant neurological abnormality, erectile dysfunction etc.

Others become suicidally depressed on nandrolone… there’s a very wide array of potential response pertaining to in particular 19-nors.

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I guess it varies per person.

The reason I held off Deca for years was because of the infamous Deca Dick and Depression rumors.

However now that I’ve tried it I found out it gave me 0 issues.

Test same as deca, 500/500, Z-e-r-o dick issues, Z-e-r-o mood issues.

2 posts were split to a new topic: Upcoming Test E + NPP Cycle